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W and B
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Thanks for the information that sounds promising
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Will keep you posted Theo On 03 Aug 2021, at 22:21, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: |
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Hi Chris
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My initial calculations indicated that I have to mount my Rotax 4,75 in forward of the firewall station 14 That calculation was spot on but then I added a 4 inch prop extension and did not have it in my initial calculations I’m sure that flying dual the cfg will be fine and solo I will need to fly with some ballast weight in the baggage section Final configuration W&B will reveal what needed to be done Regards Theo On 03 Aug 2021, at 23:14, Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote: |
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Chris Walterson
Theo--------- I notice in the Q2 manual with the GU canard , the sample W&B show 2 lbs on the tail wheel. I have the LS canard and am chunky [750]. I did the W&B with light pilot , no fuel.---Two heavy people, no fuel--- Light pilot header only---- Light pilot header and main full, and then two heavy pilots , full fuel and bagage up too 1250 LBS. After all said and done, I need 14.2 lbs on my tail wheel, at level attitude and empty. I notice most of the Q200 have close to the same.
Take care---------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Hi Theo,
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I suspect that when you measure the actual FS of the pilot, you will find it is aft of the 56.6 shown in the POH. Most people I know have their pilot position aft of this. This will make you in the forward limit of CG, but still in limits. Much better to be on the forward end of the limit than on the aft end. In any case, keep us posted. Cheers, Jay -----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Theo Scheepers Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2021 12:57 PM To: main@q-list.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B Hi Jay Yes she is quite light and I recon it’s due to the weight of the Rotax ( 80hp) and just basic vfr flight instrumentation I now need to do proper configuration W&B . According to the Q2 POH - at my 190 lb the moment on the graph is 10750 in-lb and results for a station 56,579 in This results in a cfg at 44,47 in So 33051 in-lb moment at 743,21 lb puts me right on the front end of the graph and my concern is that if I fill the header tank it will push the aircraft outside of forward CFG limit !! Thanks for your assistance,I’ll post my final W&B once completed 😀👍 It’s quite interesting that if I use the Q200 W&B graphs then the aircraft is well with in its CFG range Regards Theo On 03 Aug 2021, at 16:13, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: |
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Hi Jay
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Yes she is quite light and I recon it’s due to the weight of the Rotax ( 80hp) and just basic vfr flight instrumentation I now need to do proper configuration W&B . According to the Q2 POH - at my 190 lb the moment on the graph is 10750 in-lb and results for a station 56,579 in This results in a cfg at 44,47 in So 33051 in-lb moment at 743,21 lb puts me right on the front end of the graph and my concern is that if I fill the header tank it will push the aircraft outside of forward CFG limit !! Thanks for your assistance,I’ll post my final W&B once completed 😀👍 It’s quite interesting that if I use the Q200 W&B graphs then the aircraft is well with in its CFG range Regards Theo On 03 Aug 2021, at 16:13, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: |
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Hi Theo,
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It looks like you are showing empty weight numbers. If that is the case, then your empty CG is at 40.31. If I assume the pilot FS to be at FS 60 (you need to measure this by sitting in the airplane), then your empty-fuel, pilot-only CG would be 45.35. That should be in the middle of the envelope. The FS 40.31 empty aircraft arm is just about where you want it. Make sure you measure the main tank, header tank, pilot/passenger, and baggage area, individually. If your numbers you posted are empty weight numbers, then at 553.21 pounds, you have one of the lightest Q2's on the planet! With your rotax at ~100 HP, it should get off quickly and fly fast! Good work on that! Keep us posted. Cheers, Jay -----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Theo Scheepers Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2021 2:03 AM To: main@q-list.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B Hi Gentlemen I hope someone can recommend and check my W&B I’ve installed a Rotax 912 UL . I’ve got the old GU canard It seems to me that if I’m using the LS1 Envelope that I’m just inside the Envelope (forward end ) but if I use the GU Envelope I’m forward outside of the Envelope Here’s my weights and arms Left. 275,21 lb. arm. 39,5” Right 275,37 lb. arm. 39,5” Tail. 2,63 lb. arm. 210,4” My weight is 190 lb. This includes everything ( upholstery,instruments,fire extinguisher and battery (at station 82) )) Regards Theo Sent from my iPhone On 19 Jul 2021, at 22:20, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: |
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Hi Gentlemen I hope someone can recommend and check my W&B
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I’ve installed a Rotax 912 UL . I’ve got the old GU canard It seems to me that if I’m using the LS1 Envelope that I’m just inside the Envelope (forward end ) but if I use the GU Envelope I’m forward outside of the Envelope Here’s my weights and arms Left. 275,21 lb. arm. 39,5” Right 275,37 lb. arm. 39,5” Tail. 2,63 lb. arm. 210,4” My weight is 190 lb. This includes everything ( upholstery,instruments,fire extinguisher and battery (at station 82) )) Regards Theo Sent from my iPhone On 19 Jul 2021, at 22:20, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: |
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Removing the passenger or adding the passenger (depending on how you look at it) is the only difference between the last two loading scenarios.
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According to my calculations and using 163.4 pounds for the passenger, gives my a FS for the pass/pilot of 61.92" Of course if you are taller, more of the leg weight is farther forward, so the it does vary from passenger to passenger. Since I don’t have independent weights for the gas in each tank. I cannot compute the FS of the two tanks. You will need that for your certification papers. Cheers, Jay -----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:07 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B Jay and Rich. I think one other variable is the scales I am using. They are certified , but meant to weigh 6,000 lb Otters and they read at 5 lb increments. For the tail wheel, I used a digital bathroom scale, that I calibrated with myself holding various known weights. Thanks for the input, my "passenger/ daughter" will be pleased with the news, she lost weight.----------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Chris Walterson
Jay and Rich. I think one other variable is the scales I am using. They are certified , but meant to weigh 6,000 lb Otters and they read at 5 lb increments. For the tail wheel, I used a digital bathroom scale, that I calibrated with myself holding various known weights.
Thanks for the input, my "passenger/ daughter" will be pleased with the news, she lost weight.----------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Chris,
Here is what I have for you CG's It appears that the passenger is actually 163.4. I will have to do some more cyphering to come up with your pilot/passenger FS.
Cheers, Jay
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Should you be using Full header for the lightweight calcs, That will make some difference to Fwd CG will it not ?
Rich T.
On 18/07/2021 17:20, Chris Walterson wrote: > Here you go Jay. > > The station for my main wheels is 36 [22+14] > > The station for the tail wheel is 217 [203+14] > > Empty ---- left 365 right 370 tail 14.4 > > 160 lb pilot and full header Pilot 160, Passenger 180, full header, > full main > > Left 485, right 450, tail 36.4 Left 580, right575, tail 63.4 > > 160 lb pilot full header 1/2 main > > Left 505, right 465, tail 37.8 > > 160 lb pilot , full header, full main > > Left 525, right 490, tail 40 > > > The weighing was done with certified scales and real fuel and real > people. See what you come up with.. -- Chris > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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Should you be using Full header for the lightweight calcs, That will make some difference to Fwd CG will it not ?
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Rich T. On 18/07/2021 17:20, Chris Walterson wrote:
Here you go Jay. |
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Chris Walterson
My station for my mains and tail are different from the conventional. I have an inboard gear design and my tail spring is not the standard Q spring. For my Dattum I am using 14 inches ahead of the firewall.
Don't be shy to critic. Combined knowledge is great. Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Chris Walterson
Here you go Jay.
The station for my main wheels is 36 [22+14] The station for the tail wheel is 217 [203+14] Empty ---- left 365 right 370 tail 14.4 160 lb pilot and full header Pilot 160, Passenger 180, full header, full main Left 485, right 450, tail 36.4 Left 580, right575, tail 63.4 160 lb pilot full header 1/2 main Left 505, right 465, tail 37.8 160 lb pilot , full header, full main Left 525, right 490, tail 40 The weighing was done with certified scales and real fuel and real people. See what you come up with.. -- Chris \ -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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The first half of the main tank fill was probably with "benzine lite" as my wife likes to call low octane. :-)
Being married to an overseas lady sometimes can be an adventure in communication, almost like ATC
when flying in Class B airspace!!
Chris.. do you have a MKI or MKII config canard? Jay is correct..need to see what you are seeing.
Ya..umm..about that ballast topic. I'll make note in my build planning to avoid that oopsy so as to be sure
not to reduce my receiving home cooking options.
Vern
Mit dem FrankenVogel.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2021 7:27 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B Hi Chris,
Something is still not right. If you add the pilot and 1/2 main tank, both are aft of the FS 42.78 mark. There is no way that the CG will move slightly forward to 42.7. Please post the numbers you measured and we can all noodle it. This needs more eyes I think, unless I am really missing something. Cheers, Jay -----Original Message----- From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2021 11:56 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B Finished the W&B today. I need an extra 15lbs on the tail due to the front end weight. With the 15 lbs the empty weight is 754. With 160 lb pilot and full header it is at 971 lbs and 42.78 With 160 lb pilot and full header and 1/2 main it is at 1007.8 and 42.7 With 160 lb pilot and full header and main it is at 1055 and 42.86 With 160 lb pilot full header and main and 180 lb passenger it is at 1218.4 and 45.41 Going to compare to the flying airplanes that are in the files section. By the way, don't refer to your wife and daughter as BALLAST. Guess I am eating out tonight. Take care---------------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Hi Chris,
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Something is still not right. If you add the pilot and 1/2 main tank, both are aft of the FS 42.78 mark. There is no way that the CG will move slightly forward to 42.7. Please post the numbers you measured and we can all noodle it. This needs more eyes I think, unless I am really missing something. Cheers, Jay -----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2021 11:56 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B Finished the W&B today. I need an extra 15lbs on the tail due to the front end weight. With the 15 lbs the empty weight is 754. With 160 lb pilot and full header it is at 971 lbs and 42.78 With 160 lb pilot and full header and 1/2 main it is at 1007.8 and 42.7 With 160 lb pilot and full header and main it is at 1055 and 42.86 With 160 lb pilot full header and main and 180 lb passenger it is at 1218.4 and 45.41 Going to compare to the flying airplanes that are in the files section. By the way, don't refer to your wife and daughter as BALLAST. Guess I am eating out tonight. Take care---------------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Mike Dwyer
I took a 275 lb passenger for a ride and found mild PIO conditions until I remembered to go down on the ailerons with the Reflexer. Prior to this I'd never used down ailerons. That made the plane return to normal. I'm pretty sure I found the max rear CG limit. Mike Dwyer YouTube Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/FlyMeAirplane/playlists Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 4:46 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote: Approach adding 15 lbs aft carefully. One of our TriQ200 had 9 lbs added way back in the tail. It made the Q almost uncontrollable with two in the cockpit as it wanted to PIO badly! |
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Chris Walterson
Bruce---------- Sounds more like a W&B issue than just weight placement.
With my airplane sitting level, there is only 5 lbs on the tail wheel. Most of the well flying airplanes have around 18 lbs on the tail. Whether I add a thirty pound battery in the back, or add 13 lbs in the tail, it still gets 18 lbs on the tail wheel and with the latter I save extra weight. Test time will tell. Thanks for the input-------------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Approach adding 15 lbs aft carefully. One of our TriQ200 had 9 lbs added way back in the tail. It made the Q almost uncontrollable with two in the cockpit as it wanted to PIO badly!
Bruce Crain On Jul 17, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote: ____________________________________________________________ Choose to be safer online. Opt-in to Cyber Safety with NortonLifeLock. Get Norton 360 with LifeLock starting at $9.95/month.* https://store.netzero.net/account/showService.do?serviceId=nz-nLifeLock&utm_source=mktg&utm_medium=taglines&utm_campaign=nzlifelk_launch&utm_content=tag995&promoCode=A23457 |
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Chris Walterson
Finished the W&B today. I need an extra 15lbs on the tail due to the front end weight. With the 15 lbs the empty weight is 754.
With 160 lb pilot and full header it is at 971 lbs and 42.78 With 160 lb pilot and full header and 1/2 main it is at 1007.8 and 42.7 With 160 lb pilot and full header and main it is at 1055 and 42.86 With 160 lb pilot full header and main and 180 lb passenger it is at 1218.4 and 45.41 Going to compare to the flying airplanes that are in the files section. By the way, don't refer to your wife and daughter as BALLAST. Guess I am eating out tonight. Take care---------------- Chris -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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Chris,
Let me know if you want me to calculate your decalage from photos. Decalage will definitely impact how your airplane will fly at different CG loadings. If you want me to do that, please contact me offline and I can get you set up for that. I have done the same thing for a number of people on this list. If you need a refresher on decalage and/or Q200 aerodynamics. You can look at the following: Decallage Study of flying Q-2's Q200-Tri-Q200 Aerodynamic Study
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
One of our TriQ 200s had a 9 lb weight way back in the tail. When flown with two people it had and almost uncontrollable PIO! The 9 lb weight was removed and the battery was moved forward to just behind the seat back. It flew just fine after that. Be sure you do calcs for full fuel loaded passengers and luggage to see if you are out of the envelope aft. I moved the battery forward in my TriQ200 to the right just beside the passengers calf on the canard and have flown it for years. Just saying do all the possible loaded configurations not just an empty calc. Bruce Chris,
Can anything be relocated aft of present position? Every pound moved aft no matter where on the airframe makes a difference. Give everything a critical why does it have to be located there.
Just a thought before adding dead weight. With my Corvair/Dragonfly I had to locate the battery aft of the wing. It still was not enough so I went to a heavier battery. Odyssey 925 solved wt and bal plus carries more amp hrs. Duel function and it is not a Bob weight on a long arm that suffers inertial effects.
Regards,
Charlie My you tube channel
On Sunday, July 4, 2021, 7:28 PM, Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:
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