Q2, Q200 airframe alert


Mike Dwyer
 

The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



Edwin Medina
 

Thanks for the info Mike!

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 09:06 Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



britmcman99
 

Hello Mike:

Can you confirm that the “Black“ rotted wood in your firewall was, for sure, saturated with engine oil?  Could it have instead been fungi/black mold from exposure to moisture instead?  I am asking because I associate wood rot with moisture and mold and I think of oil as inherently a preservative since it is common to treat wood with oils (like linseed oil). 

Fiberglass should be impervious to oil penetration in any absence of voids or pin holes. 

What should owners/builders be expected to do to insure the structural integrity of the firewall and airworthiness?

Inspect the firewall -how to
Tap test?
Drill a hole or core sample hole and inspect the wood for???
       Degradation, softness, sponginess , oil, moisture, mold?
       
What is the acceptance/rejection criteria?
Should owners ground their aircraft immediately if they should encounter what conditions?

This reminds me of a British Car Enthusiast who took his Morgan to the shop for peculiar handling issues, later to find he had termites. 

Phil




On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:06 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



Mike Dwyer
 

How do you tell if the wood rot is moisture vs oil?
I'll be down at the hangar tomorrow and will squeeze the black rot and see if I get oil dripping out.  Any moisture should be dry by now.
The rest of your questions are all good and I don't know the answer.  I now see the pocket formed under the canard as a weakness in the design.  Maybe needs a drain hole?
FYI, this Q lived it's entire life in a hangar so had very little rain on it.
Fly Safe.
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM britmcman99 via groups.io <britmcman=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Mike:

Can you confirm that the “Black“ rotted wood in your firewall was, for sure, saturated with engine oil?  Could it have instead been fungi/black mold from exposure to moisture instead?  I am asking because I associate wood rot with moisture and mold and I think of oil as inherently a preservative since it is common to treat wood with oils (like linseed oil). 

Fiberglass should be impervious to oil penetration in any absence of voids or pin holes. 

What should owners/builders be expected to do to insure the structural integrity of the firewall and airworthiness?

Inspect the firewall -how to
Tap test?
Drill a hole or core sample hole and inspect the wood for???
       Degradation, softness, sponginess , oil, moisture, mold?
       
What is the acceptance/rejection criteria?
Should owners ground their aircraft immediately if they should encounter what conditions?

This reminds me of a British Car Enthusiast who took his Morgan to the shop for peculiar handling issues, later to find he had termites. 

Phil




On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:06 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



One Sky Dog
 

Wood can only rot with the right amount of moisture. To dry or wet no rot it is biological, I do not think oiled wood promotes rot.





On Thursday, March 24, 2022, 10:28 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

How do you tell if the wood rot is moisture vs oil?
I'll be down at the hangar tomorrow and will squeeze the black rot and see if I get oil dripping out.  Any moisture should be dry by now.
The rest of your questions are all good and I don't know the answer.  I now see the pocket formed under the canard as a weakness in the design.  Maybe needs a drain hole?
FYI, this Q lived it's entire life in a hangar so had very little rain on it.
Fly Safe.
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM britmcman99 via groups.io <britmcman=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Mike:

Can you confirm that the “Black“ rotted wood in your firewall was, for sure, saturated with engine oil?  Could it have instead been fungi/black mold from exposure to moisture instead?  I am asking because I associate wood rot with moisture and mold and I think of oil as inherently a preservative since it is common to treat wood with oils (like linseed oil). 

Fiberglass should be impervious to oil penetration in any absence of voids or pin holes. 

What should owners/builders be expected to do to insure the structural integrity of the firewall and airworthiness?

Inspect the firewall -how to
Tap test?
Drill a hole or core sample hole and inspect the wood for???
       Degradation, softness, sponginess , oil, moisture, mold?
       
What is the acceptance/rejection criteria?
Should owners ground their aircraft immediately if they should encounter what conditions?

This reminds me of a British Car Enthusiast who took his Morgan to the shop for peculiar handling issues, later to find he had termites. 

Phil




On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:06 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Mike,

 

Once again, glad you are OK and fit. Thanks for your insight on these things. Since you now have a “dissected” Q, your observations are very helpful. If you don’t mind sharing some photos of what you are seeing, we would all benefit from it.

 

Cheers,
Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Dwyer
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 11:28 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2, Q200 airframe alert

 

How do you tell if the wood rot is moisture vs oil?

I'll be down at the hangar tomorrow and will squeeze the black rot and see if I get oil dripping out.  Any moisture should be dry by now.

The rest of your questions are all good and I don't know the answer.  I now see the pocket formed under the canard as a weakness in the design.  Maybe needs a drain hole?

FYI, this Q lived it's entire life in a hangar so had very little rain on it.

Fly Safe.

Mike Dwyer

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 

On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM britmcman99 via groups.io <britmcman=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello Mike:

 

Can you confirm that the “Black“ rotted wood in your firewall was, for sure, saturated with engine oil?  Could it have instead been fungi/black mold from exposure to moisture instead?  I am asking because I associate wood rot with moisture and mold and I think of oil as inherently a preservative since it is common to treat wood with oils (like linseed oil). 

 

Fiberglass should be impervious to oil penetration in any absence of voids or pin holes. 

 

What should owners/builders be expected to do to insure the structural integrity of the firewall and airworthiness?

 

Inspect the firewall -how to

Tap test?

Drill a hole or core sample hole and inspect the wood for???

       Degradation, softness, sponginess , oil, moisture, mold?

       

What is the acceptance/rejection criteria?

Should owners ground their aircraft immediately if they should encounter what conditions?

 

This reminds me of a British Car Enthusiast who took his Morgan to the shop for peculiar handling issues, later to find he had termites. 

 

Phil

 

 



On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:06 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:



The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

 

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

 

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

 

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

 

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer

 

 


Frankenbird Vern
 

 Sample it, Mike. Real Estate folks have the connections for lab work to determine black mold. It's a big problem in the Pacific Northwest also. 

 I remember when I was a kid on the East Coast of Florida our shoes would get mold just being in the closet. Didn't matter how well sealed either.. a loaf of bread was green within three days of opening.  We had no choice but to freezer the bread. 

 What you have discovered about the firewall tho is food for thought. You had a chance to see what caused the oil pressure to drop?

Vern     

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 12:28 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2, Q200 airframe alert
 
How do you tell if the wood rot is moisture vs oil?
I'll be down at the hangar tomorrow and will squeeze the black rot and see if I get oil dripping out.  Any moisture should be dry by now.
The rest of your questions are all good and I don't know the answer.  I now see the pocket formed under the canard as a weakness in the design.  Maybe needs a drain hole?
FYI, this Q lived it's entire life in a hangar so had very little rain on it.
Fly Safe.
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM britmcman99 via groups.io <britmcman=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello Mike:

Can you confirm that the “Black“ rotted wood in your firewall was, for sure, saturated with engine oil?  Could it have instead been fungi/black mold from exposure to moisture instead?  I am asking because I associate wood rot with moisture and mold and I think of oil as inherently a preservative since it is common to treat wood with oils (like linseed oil). 

Fiberglass should be impervious to oil penetration in any absence of voids or pin holes. 

What should owners/builders be expected to do to insure the structural integrity of the firewall and airworthiness?

Inspect the firewall -how to
Tap test?
Drill a hole or core sample hole and inspect the wood for???
       Degradation, softness, sponginess , oil, moisture, mold?
       
What is the acceptance/rejection criteria?
Should owners ground their aircraft immediately if they should encounter what conditions?

This reminds me of a British Car Enthusiast who took his Morgan to the shop for peculiar handling issues, later to find he had termites. 

Phil




On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:06 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



Mike Dwyer
 

Our boats with wood cores rot out here in FL!  But the plane was always in a hangar.
FAA hasn't let me pull the cowl yet but looks like Friday I'll get the first look.
Fly Safe,
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 2:34 PM Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:
 Sample it, Mike. Real Estate folks have the connections for lab work to determine black mold. It's a big problem in the Pacific Northwest also. 

 I remember when I was a kid on the East Coast of Florida our shoes would get mold just being in the closet. Didn't matter how well sealed either.. a loaf of bread was green within three days of opening.  We had no choice but to freezer the bread. 

 What you have discovered about the firewall tho is food for thought. You had a chance to see what caused the oil pressure to drop?

Vern     

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 12:28 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2, Q200 airframe alert
 
How do you tell if the wood rot is moisture vs oil?
I'll be down at the hangar tomorrow and will squeeze the black rot and see if I get oil dripping out.  Any moisture should be dry by now.
The rest of your questions are all good and I don't know the answer.  I now see the pocket formed under the canard as a weakness in the design.  Maybe needs a drain hole?
FYI, this Q lived it's entire life in a hangar so had very little rain on it.
Fly Safe.
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 12:57 PM britmcman99 via groups.io <britmcman=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Mike:

Can you confirm that the “Black“ rotted wood in your firewall was, for sure, saturated with engine oil?  Could it have instead been fungi/black mold from exposure to moisture instead?  I am asking because I associate wood rot with moisture and mold and I think of oil as inherently a preservative since it is common to treat wood with oils (like linseed oil). 

Fiberglass should be impervious to oil penetration in any absence of voids or pin holes. 

What should owners/builders be expected to do to insure the structural integrity of the firewall and airworthiness?

Inspect the firewall -how to
Tap test?
Drill a hole or core sample hole and inspect the wood for???
       Degradation, softness, sponginess , oil, moisture, mold?
       
What is the acceptance/rejection criteria?
Should owners ground their aircraft immediately if they should encounter what conditions?

This reminds me of a British Car Enthusiast who took his Morgan to the shop for peculiar handling issues, later to find he had termites. 

Phil




On Mar 24, 2022, at 6:06 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer



Sam Hoskins
 

Good idea Mike. We're on the road right now, when I get back I will add a "Lessons learned" folder.


On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 9:06 AM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
The Q-list needs a file or folder to store issues that are found.

In the first few years of my Q200 I was sharing a hangar with a high wing aircraft.  I would pull the Q into the hangar, put a wheeled hydraulic jack plus a support that spread the load out over the lower firewall and body of the plane, about 2 square feet of area.  Then I'd jack the plane up and roll it sideways into the hangar.  

I knew I had a slight amount of fiberglass cracking at the firewall/lower body point.

Slowly over 37 years, engine oil had penetrated into the firewall plywood.  The firewall wood was found to be black and rotted.  A few of the triangular load spreaders also had rotted.

Inspection of the lower firewall to body joint should be done looking for cracks.  Additionally a tap test looking for softness should be performed.  It is possible that the fuselage can trap moisture in the area under the canard at the firewall due to it's design.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer