N169W


Sandaircraft
 

So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.


Sam Hoskins
 

A diamond in the rough.


On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 6:49 PM Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






Mike Dwyer
 

That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






Jay Scheevel
 

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

Cheers,
Jay


On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






Sandaircraft
 

I havent though about that, i have contacted the previous owner, mostly to get background, but also knowing ill need bill of sale. I was thinking certified aircraft. Where the airworthiness doesn't expire. Register and go... ill have to look into this.


On Jul 10, 2022, at 9:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

Cheers,
Jay


On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






Robert Cringely
 

It's not that the airworthiness expired, but that someone specifically asked that it be cancelled. The FAA is usually (eventually -- it can take months) flexible about this, especially if you can get that bill of sale.

Bob



On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 7:31 PM Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
I havent though about that, i have contacted the previous owner, mostly to get background, but also knowing ill need bill of sale. I was thinking certified aircraft. Where the airworthiness doesn't expire. Register and go... ill have to look into this.


On Jul 10, 2022, at 9:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

Cheers,
Jay


On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






Sandaircraft
 

Oh in reading the registration page on the FAA website the airworthiness is listed as expired, not terminated or other language that would signify it was turned in.


On Jul 10, 2022, at 11:08 PM, Robert Cringely <bob@...> wrote:


It's not that the airworthiness expired, but that someone specifically asked that it be cancelled. The FAA is usually (eventually -- it can take months) flexible about this, especially if you can get that bill of sale.

Bob



On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 7:31 PM Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
I havent though about that, i have contacted the previous owner, mostly to get background, but also knowing ill need bill of sale. I was thinking certified aircraft. Where the airworthiness doesn't expire. Register and go... ill have to look into this.


On Jul 10, 2022, at 9:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

Cheers,
Jay


On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






One Sky Dog
 

Jay,

I just looked at the FAA approved kit list. The Q’s like Dragonfly do not appear on the list. That puts it in the category of plans built. 

I deregistered my Dragonfly by writing scrapped on the registration and sent it in. I re- registered it same serial number and new N number. I presented it to the DAR as amateur built with me as the primary builder.

Regards,

On Sunday, July 10, 2022, 7:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

Cheers,
Jay


On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:


That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:
So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.






Jay Scheevel
 

I ran into this issue with mine, Charlie. I think I may be the most recent Q to have been certified (2018), but things have even changed since then. The Dragonfly and QAC ran their course before the FAA had put together their officially approved 51% summary list of kit built aircraft. I think that got finalized about 1987 or 1988 and has been periodically updated.

 

The main problem that you may run into is that if you call it a kit, then they want to see the bill of sale from the kit-manufacturer (QAC), and all subsequent bills of sale, proceeding to the present owner. I was able to talk my way out of the primary bill of sale by showing all of my purchase correspondence, cancelled checks, delivery sheets, etc. QAC did not issue an FAA approved “bill of sale”, so that was a problem (and I am the only owner, so no subsequent ones were required).

 

I think the latest generation of younger DAR’s for the most part have never heard of a kit without a kit-manufacturer bill of sale, so it really throws them off.  Calling it a plans built or perhaps even an original design may be the more practical approach, especially if you want it to be registered with a repairman certificate issued to you. The only time the DARs really get bent out of shape if you include (non-avionics) assemblies or components that were salvaged from fully certified aircraft. When using experimental components, they are more liberal.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 8:21 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io; main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Jay,

 

I just looked at the FAA approved kit list. The Q’s like Dragonfly do not appear on the list. That puts it in the category of plans built. 

 

I deregistered my Dragonfly by writing scrapped on the registration and sent it in. I re- registered it same serial number and new N number. I presented it to the DAR as amateur built with me as the primary builder.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie




 

On Sunday, July 10, 2022, 7:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 



On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:



That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.

Mike Dwyer

 

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:

So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.





Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
 

Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


One Sky Dog
 

Jay,

I was told by the FSDO do not read things into the regulations. By FAA definition Q’s are not “kits” they were before the 51% rule. They are EAB plans built airplanes even if the shells were offered by QAC.
 
Hire a DAR and make it understood his job is to get you through the bureaucratic process. When he asks about “kit” state plans built. The big who built what form goes away in the registration package.

Do not bring up past history. Write scrapped on registration and send it in. It is no longer an airplane but a pile of amateur built parts.

Apply for your N-number. You are the builder assign your own serial number. Records of material purchases were lost in the … move,divorce,flood, but you will sign an affidavit of purchase.

Do not engage in conversation with the DAR about who built what. State you are the “primary builder” and you had help from other amateur builders. It is not lying even if you bought the “amateur built part” the builder of the part helped you complete your project.  Primary builder is an undefined FAA term but is used in educational builds like the one week wonders to register them. No one built 51% but someone put their name on the registration.

Regards,

On Monday, July 11, 2022, 8:38 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

I ran into this issue with mine, Charlie. I think I may be the most recent Q to have been certified (2018), but things have even changed since then. The Dragonfly and QAC ran their course before the FAA had put together their officially approved 51% summary list of kit built aircraft. I think that got finalized about 1987 or 1988 and has been periodically updated.

 

The main problem that you may run into is that if you call it a kit, then they want to see the bill of sale from the kit-manufacturer (QAC), and all subsequent bills of sale, proceeding to the present owner. I was able to talk my way out of the primary bill of sale by showing all of my purchase correspondence, cancelled checks, delivery sheets, etc. QAC did not issue an FAA approved “bill of sale”, so that was a problem (and I am the only owner, so no subsequent ones were required).

 

I think the latest generation of younger DAR’s for the most part have never heard of a kit without a kit-manufacturer bill of sale, so it really throws them off.  Calling it a plans built or perhaps even an original design may be the more practical approach, especially if you want it to be registered with a repairman certificate issued to you. The only time the DARs really get bent out of shape if you include (non-avionics) assemblies or components that were salvaged from fully certified aircraft. When using experimental components, they are more liberal.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 8:21 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io; main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Jay,

 

I just looked at the FAA approved kit list. The Q’s like Dragonfly do not appear on the list. That puts it in the category of plans built. 

 

I deregistered my Dragonfly by writing scrapped on the registration and sent it in. I re- registered it same serial number and new N number. I presented it to the DAR as amateur built with me as the primary builder.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie




 

On Sunday, July 10, 2022, 7:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 



On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:



That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.

Mike Dwyer

 

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:

So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.





Jay Scheevel
 

Every FSDO has a different story. OK City is probably the most bureaucratic and the slowest. I went through SLC for my airworthiness, which in the end seemed reasonable, but my DAR was a retired Safety officer from that FSDO and had been doing EAB inspections on the side for a number of years, so he had a good rapport with the Salt Lake FSDO. Best to find someone like that who can walk you through the steps. It is well worth paying them for the help.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 9:16 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


Jay Scheevel
 

Good advice, Charlie.

 

Water under the bridge for me, but it is good for anyone who is facing this as an upcoming task.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 9:47 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Jay,

 

I was told by the FSDO do not read things into the regulations. By FAA definition Q’s are not “kits” they were before the 51% rule. They are EAB plans built airplanes even if the shells were offered by QAC.

 

Hire a DAR and make it understood his job is to get you through the bureaucratic process. When he asks about “kit” state plans built. The big who built what form goes away in the registration package.

 

Do not bring up past history. Write scrapped on registration and send it in. It is no longer an airplane but a pile of amateur built parts.

 

Apply for your N-number. You are the builder assign your own serial number. Records of material purchases were lost in the … move,divorce,flood, but you will sign an affidavit of purchase.

 

Do not engage in conversation with the DAR about who built what. State you are the “primary builder” and you had help from other amateur builders. It is not lying even if you bought the “amateur built part” the builder of the part helped you complete your project.  Primary builder is an undefined FAA term but is used in educational builds like the one week wonders to register them. No one built 51% but someone put their name on the registration.

Regards,

 

Charlie


 

On Monday, July 11, 2022, 8:38 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

I ran into this issue with mine, Charlie. I think I may be the most recent Q to have been certified (2018), but things have even changed since then. The Dragonfly and QAC ran their course before the FAA had put together their officially approved 51% summary list of kit built aircraft. I think that got finalized about 1987 or 1988 and has been periodically updated.

 

The main problem that you may run into is that if you call it a kit, then they want to see the bill of sale from the kit-manufacturer (QAC), and all subsequent bills of sale, proceeding to the present owner. I was able to talk my way out of the primary bill of sale by showing all of my purchase correspondence, cancelled checks, delivery sheets, etc. QAC did not issue an FAA approved “bill of sale”, so that was a problem (and I am the only owner, so no subsequent ones were required).

 

I think the latest generation of younger DAR’s for the most part have never heard of a kit without a kit-manufacturer bill of sale, so it really throws them off.  Calling it a plans built or perhaps even an original design may be the more practical approach, especially if you want it to be registered with a repairman certificate issued to you. The only time the DARs really get bent out of shape if you include (non-avionics) assemblies or components that were salvaged from fully certified aircraft. When using experimental components, they are more liberal.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 8:21 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io; main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Jay,

 

I just looked at the FAA approved kit list. The Q’s like Dragonfly do not appear on the list. That puts it in the category of plans built. 

 

I deregistered my Dragonfly by writing scrapped on the registration and sent it in. I re- registered it same serial number and new N number. I presented it to the DAR as amateur built with me as the primary builder.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie



 

On Sunday, July 10, 2022, 7:16 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

IMO the best approach is to call it by a new model name (something like: Quickie model Q2A, serial number 1), then register it as a new homebuilt replica Q2 as built from parts. If you try to use the original QAC serial number it may become complicated since it has already been registered. FSDO can confirm this if you can find a DAR that is reasonably easy to work with.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

 

On Jul 10, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:



That's a 1985 Q2.  It was FAA deregistered on 11/15/2012.  That's going to be a problem.  I'd suggest you talk to your local fsdo to see if you can re-register it somehow.

Mike Dwyer

 

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 19:49 Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:

So today was the day, we moved 169W from behind my cousins garage into my hanger. I got a better look at what im working with. Im excited but not overly so. Alot of work ahead. So far from what i see its solid, but there areas of concern, some delam on corner of elevator, delam on rear wing inboard of aileron, basically the filet between the aileron and fuselage. The tail has been modified and has a single spring tail wheel mount, the  rudder has obviously been modified and didnt survive the trip intact. Looks like the bottom mount has broken.
My plans are complete disassembly, sand down complete fuselage mostly using straight line sander, make sure she has good bones. Fingers crossed that i can work with whats there.




Brian Larick
 

Kind of hijacking.

I have a q200 kit to build.  Not the original purchaser.  Anything special about registration, Airworthiness very etc as a first build not original kit purchaser?

Brian

On Jul 11, 2022, at 11:30, Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) <robert.kidd@...> wrote:



Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


Robert Cringely
 

The lesson here, Brian, is to stop calling it a kit. Kits didn't exist when the Q2 was being produced. Calling it a kit will only complicate things with the FAA. It's plans-built. 

Bob


On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 8:55 AM Brian Larick <blarick@...> wrote:
Kind of hijacking.

I have a q200 kit to build.  Not the original purchaser.  Anything special about registration, Airworthiness very etc as a first build not original kit purchaser?

Brian

On Jul 11, 2022, at 11:30, Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) <robert.kidd@...> wrote:



Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
 

There are two different issues here:

Registration

Air Worthiness Certificate

 

Registration comes under the jurisdiction of Oklahoma City, the FAA Registration Center.  Until it is registered, it isn’t an “airplane”.  It used to be that the registrations never expired, but not too long ago it was determined they were carrying a huge number of aircraft that didn’t really exist, so they shifted to the current policy of cyclical renewals for a nominal fee, and that dropped out most the dead planes. 

 

Air Worthiness Certificates are under the jurisdiction of the “local” FSDO (Flight Safety District Office). 

 

Both places are subject to their own bureaucracy issues. 

 

That registration looks like it expired, there is a good likelihood that OK City will allow you to apply for registration again.  If you can obtain an FAA Bill of Sale from the previously registered owner, you may be able to just apply for new ownership, and it may go through.  It might be worth calling OK City and ask to see what they tell you.

 

Since it expired, and was not “de-registered” (there is a difference between those) it is likely the Airworthiness Certificate was never surrendered, and if the registration is re-instated, the Airworthiness Certificate will not have expired.

 

All that said, the advice from Charlie and Jay is good to take in and digest. 

 

If I would have had Charlie’s advice early on, I would have built a new Falcon XP out of parts, and likely might have been able to get it out of the “Experimental Exhibition” bracket, and into “Experimental Amateur Built” bracket, and possibly could have applied for a repairman certificate.  And if frogs had wings…

 

Jay’s advice is good, A DAR can save you all kinds of headaches.  You will have to work with your geographic office, I don’t think they will let you shop around, unless you are right on the boundaries. 

At that, when I called to see about having the FSDO send someone out, they suggested I use a DAR, as they were busy.  I told him a DAR was a bit expensive for my meager budget and I wasn’t in any particular hurry, and the tone changed significantly, and they sent an inspector within 3 weeks.  I had the condition inspection done prior (at the request of the FSDO) and they found a couple of squawks that I had to fix.  They returned a week later and re-issued my Airworthiness Certificate.

 

However it goes for you, there will be some red tape.  With that in mind, it isn’t insurmountable.

 

Good luck with your new project.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT

 


Frankenbird Vern
 

 I wonder..Bruce..which FSDO did your DAR work with? I presume Tulsa is where I will go through, but in my case the truth is the entire critter is not possible to be a kit!  Nothing like what they are offering from Zenith and similar. Coordinated pilots..not much trimming..they practically put themselves together. I've seen more layout work done in Production lines than the current Experimental kits being offered now.

Vern
Trapped again in OKC on Contract at the Lazy B as an M.E.
"The beatings will continue until moral improves!"   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 10:49 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W
 

Every FSDO has a different story. OK City is probably the most bureaucratic and the slowest. I went through SLC for my airworthiness, which in the end seemed reasonable, but my DAR was a retired Safety officer from that FSDO and had been doing EAB inspections on the side for a number of years, so he had a good rapport with the Salt Lake FSDO. Best to find someone like that who can walk you through the steps. It is well worth paying them for the help.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 9:16 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


Sandaircraft
 

All very helpful info. I am in contact with po and hopeful we can do bos. That will be first step. I also am in good with local FSDO and a DAR. I definitely want this sorted before hand.
If all goes well id like to power with corvair, so Vern if you have any pics or drawings, any advice id love to hear it. Mostly interested in placement and mount design at this point.


On Jul 11, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:


 I wonder..Bruce..which FSDO did your DAR work with? I presume Tulsa is where I will go through, but in my case the truth is the entire critter is not possible to be a kit!  Nothing like what they are offering from Zenith and similar. Coordinated pilots..not much trimming..they practically put themselves together. I've seen more layout work done in Production lines than the current Experimental kits being offered now.

Vern
Trapped again in OKC on Contract at the Lazy B as an M.E.
"The beatings will continue until moral improves!"   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 10:49 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W
 

Every FSDO has a different story. OK City is probably the most bureaucratic and the slowest. I went through SLC for my airworthiness, which in the end seemed reasonable, but my DAR was a retired Safety officer from that FSDO and had been doing EAB inspections on the side for a number of years, so he had a good rapport with the Salt Lake FSDO. Best to find someone like that who can walk you through the steps. It is well worth paying them for the help.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 9:16 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


Frankenbird Vern
 

 Charlie has I believe a 3.0L on his Dragonfly. The firewalls are not all that much different dimensionally
between the Q bird and Dragonfly.  One of the advantages is the engine can be "tight" to the firewall
since the only clearance needed is to the harmonic balancer.  

 By the time I get this project flying I'll be playing Johnny Cash on the headsets about 
the "new car made from 20 different years".  The engine is a 1965, 64, a few 2014 and up parts. 🙂 

 My engine mount.. take a look at William Wynne and his Buttercup project engine mount. That is 
what I am using. Wittman gear. The firewall will have to be re-enforced but all the landing loads are
removed from the canard. 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 12:12 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W
 
All very helpful info. I am in contact with po and hopeful we can do bos. That will be first step. I also am in good with local FSDO and a DAR. I definitely want this sorted before hand.
If all goes well id like to power with corvair, so Vern if you have any pics or drawings, any advice id love to hear it. Mostly interested in placement and mount design at this point.


On Jul 11, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:


 I wonder..Bruce..which FSDO did your DAR work with? I presume Tulsa is where I will go through, but in my case the truth is the entire critter is not possible to be a kit!  Nothing like what they are offering from Zenith and similar. Coordinated pilots..not much trimming..they practically put themselves together. I've seen more layout work done in Production lines than the current Experimental kits being offered now.

Vern
Trapped again in OKC on Contract at the Lazy B as an M.E.
"The beatings will continue until moral improves!"   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 10:49 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W
 

Every FSDO has a different story. OK City is probably the most bureaucratic and the slowest. I went through SLC for my airworthiness, which in the end seemed reasonable, but my DAR was a retired Safety officer from that FSDO and had been doing EAB inspections on the side for a number of years, so he had a good rapport with the Salt Lake FSDO. Best to find someone like that who can walk you through the steps. It is well worth paying them for the help.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 9:16 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT


One Sky Dog
 

Sandman?

This is the first Corvair mount I saw for a small firewall. This was a KR2 firewall mock-up in 2001.

I built one, tested to failure, rebuilt correcting flaws, retested. Modified an existing mount that came with an engine I purchased. Installed on my Dragonfly and have 100 hrs of flight time on it.



Inline image

This mount will fail the rear horizontal tube bends up with engine loads.


Inline image

Rear truss that is connected to bed properly resists bending load and transfers it to the firewall bolts.

Regards,

On Monday, July 11, 2022, 11:12 AM, Sandaircraft <Snoboarders@...> wrote:

All very helpful info. I am in contact with po and hopeful we can do bos. That will be first step. I also am in good with local FSDO and a DAR. I definitely want this sorted before hand.
If all goes well id like to power with corvair, so Vern if you have any pics or drawings, any advice id love to hear it. Mostly interested in placement and mount design at this point.


On Jul 11, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:


 I wonder..Bruce..which FSDO did your DAR work with? I presume Tulsa is where I will go through, but in my case the truth is the entire critter is not possible to be a kit!  Nothing like what they are offering from Zenith and similar. Coordinated pilots..not much trimming..they practically put themselves together. I've seen more layout work done in Production lines than the current Experimental kits being offered now.

Vern
Trapped again in OKC on Contract at the Lazy B as an M.E.
"The beatings will continue until moral improves!"   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 10:49 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W
 

Every FSDO has a different story. OK City is probably the most bureaucratic and the slowest. I went through SLC for my airworthiness, which in the end seemed reasonable, but my DAR was a retired Safety officer from that FSDO and had been doing EAB inspections on the side for a number of years, so he had a good rapport with the Salt Lake FSDO. Best to find someone like that who can walk you through the steps. It is well worth paying them for the help.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 9:16 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] N169W

 

Whether or not you can re-register it, may depend on who you get hold of at OK City.  If you can’t re-register it, you can probably still get it registered as a different aircraft.

 

I bought a de-registered Falcon XP (N536AA).  I called OK City and was told I could re-register it.  I rounded up an FAA Bill of Sale from last registered owner, filled out appropriate forms to register, and sent it in.  I did get a call about it, and apparently they did call the last registered owner to verify.  I did have to go through the process of applying for re-issuance of Airworthiness Certificate.  A long dance with the FAA, but successfully registered it and still have it.

 

John Lewis (Ogden Utah EAA chapter) bought a de-registered Q2 out of Florida.  He was told he would be unable to re-register it because it had been “scrapped”.  They did allow him to apply for new registration as a new plane built from parts, and he was able to acquire the same N# for it, so he has a successfully registered aircraft that was formerly de-registered.

 

Ping me off line if you have specific questions about my experience.

Robert Kidd

Logan, UT