Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
Edwin Medina
Any news about selling the Q200? Please let me know! Thank you Edwin 7875257768 On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 8:55 AM David J. Gall <David@...> wrote:




David J. Gall
Jay,
Understood. That’s why I never release software tools that aren’t “ready for prime time.” LOL
BTW, “relative column” nomenclature is an Option (Preference) setting in Excel that saves with the document – easily removed by deselecting that option then saving the document.
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 10:58 AM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
No, I did not use defined names in that original spreadsheet, but I also did not use “relative column” nomenclature. I suspect that someone imported it into OpenOffice or something similar and it got changed that way. I initially built it just for my use for quickly calculating weight and balance, by component, as they were added to the structure. I was changing it frequently as I was building. Consequently it grew and took on a bigger role as time went on.
As you point out, defined names usage is a better practice. I really just tossed it over the fence so people could see how I was doing things. Never expected it to have such a big footprint.
BTW, I have no unusable fuel number in my original spreadsheet, since all of my fuel is usable….save for a few drops… maybe .0073 pounds. 😉
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Jay,
Understood – I was referring to its ancestral beginnings. Did you originally build it using defined names? If so, someone went to a lot of work to strip them out. <shrug>
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Good point, David. However, it is not my spreadsheet It’s ancestry only started it’s long evolutionary journey as my spreadsheet. I don’t use numerical column references, unless I am writing it in macro code running in the background.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Jay,
Please use defined names and named ranges when building your spreadsheets and formulas. It is soooo much easier to follow a spreadsheet formula that reads “=MainTankUseableFuel+1” than it is to follow a formula that reads “=R[6]C[3]+1” or “=C8+1” or, worse “=$C$8+1”.
Thank you,
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I built the original spreadsheet template, including the columns below that you are referencing, which I am well aware of. Details can be trivial, as in this case, but not always and it is important to be rigorous.
Note that in the spreadsheet you originally sent… in the columns below, zerotime weight is 1192 and your header weight is listed as 20 pounds. In the next row, the header weight jumps to 30 (10 pounds heavier), and the total weight jumps to 1196 (4 pounds heavier). As I mentioned before the zerotime values come from the section above. This is why you have this discrepancy in your columns section. I have corrected your spreadsheet formulas (to include your 1 gallon unusable in the header) and I am attaching that corrected version here. You will see that the starting weight is 1202 in the corrected version (not 1192).
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary. 



Jay Scheevel
No, I did not use defined names in that original spreadsheet, but I also did not use “relative column” nomenclature. I suspect that someone imported it into OpenOffice or something similar and it got changed that way. I initially built it just for my use for quickly calculating weight and balance, by component, as they were added to the structure. I was changing it frequently as I was building. Consequently it grew and took on a bigger role as time went on.
As you point out, defined names usage is a better practice. I really just tossed it over the fence so people could see how I was doing things. Never expected it to have such a big footprint.
BTW, I have no unusable fuel number in my original spreadsheet, since all of my fuel is usable….save for a few drops… maybe .0073 pounds. 😉
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 8:30 AM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
Jay,
Understood – I was referring to its ancestral beginnings. Did you originally build it using defined names? If so, someone went to a lot of work to strip them out. <shrug>
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Good point, David. However, it is not my spreadsheet It’s ancestry only started it’s long evolutionary journey as my spreadsheet. I don’t use numerical column references, unless I am writing it in macro code running in the background.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Jay,
Please use defined names and named ranges when building your spreadsheets and formulas. It is soooo much easier to follow a spreadsheet formula that reads “=MainTankUseableFuel+1” than it is to follow a formula that reads “=R[6]C[3]+1” or “=C8+1” or, worse “=$C$8+1”.
Thank you,
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I built the original spreadsheet template, including the columns below that you are referencing, which I am well aware of. Details can be trivial, as in this case, but not always and it is important to be rigorous.
Note that in the spreadsheet you originally sent… in the columns below, zerotime weight is 1192 and your header weight is listed as 20 pounds. In the next row, the header weight jumps to 30 (10 pounds heavier), and the total weight jumps to 1196 (4 pounds heavier). As I mentioned before the zerotime values come from the section above. This is why you have this discrepancy in your columns section. I have corrected your spreadsheet formulas (to include your 1 gallon unusable in the header) and I am attaching that corrected version here. You will see that the starting weight is 1202 in the corrected version (not 1192).
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary. 



David J. Gall
Jay,
Understood – I was referring to its ancestral beginnings. Did you originally build it using defined names? If so, someone went to a lot of work to strip them out. <shrug>
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 9:48 AM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
Good point, David. However, it is not my spreadsheet It’s ancestry only started it’s long evolutionary journey as my spreadsheet. I don’t use numerical column references, unless I am writing it in macro code running in the background.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Jay,
Please use defined names and named ranges when building your spreadsheets and formulas. It is soooo much easier to follow a spreadsheet formula that reads “=MainTankUseableFuel+1” than it is to follow a formula that reads “=R[6]C[3]+1” or “=C8+1” or, worse “=$C$8+1”.
Thank you,
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I built the original spreadsheet template, including the columns below that you are referencing, which I am well aware of. Details can be trivial, as in this case, but not always and it is important to be rigorous.
Note that in the spreadsheet you originally sent… in the columns below, zerotime weight is 1192 and your header weight is listed as 20 pounds. In the next row, the header weight jumps to 30 (10 pounds heavier), and the total weight jumps to 1196 (4 pounds heavier). As I mentioned before the zerotime values come from the section above. This is why you have this discrepancy in your columns section. I have corrected your spreadsheet formulas (to include your 1 gallon unusable in the header) and I am attaching that corrected version here. You will see that the starting weight is 1202 in the corrected version (not 1192).
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary. 



Jay Scheevel
It is supposed to be 6.0073, which is what I put in the corrected spreadsheet, unless I made a typo. I think I got that from Eschbach's "Handbook of Engineering Principles" for Avgas under standard conditions. 6 is good to use, I was just being too cute by half. 😉
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Cheers, Jay Original Message
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 7:47 AM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200 I always thought it was just 6 lbs./gal, not 6.1. Is this "inflation"? LOL Original Message From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 5:41 PM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200 Corbin Not trying to be picky, BUT, a US gallon of gas is 6.1 lbs. I think your math is using 5 lbs. My airplane weighs 339 KGs , flies 281 KPH and burns 19 litres per hr. Take care, from Canada Chris  This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com 



Jay Scheevel
Good point, David. However, it is not my spreadsheet It’s ancestry only started it’s long evolutionary journey as my spreadsheet. I don’t use numerical column references, unless I am writing it in macro code running in the background.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 7:39 AM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
Jay,
Please use defined names and named ranges when building your spreadsheets and formulas. It is soooo much easier to follow a spreadsheet formula that reads “=MainTankUseableFuel+1” than it is to follow a formula that reads “=R[6]C[3]+1” or “=C8+1” or, worse “=$C$8+1”.
Thank you,
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I built the original spreadsheet template, including the columns below that you are referencing, which I am well aware of. Details can be trivial, as in this case, but not always and it is important to be rigorous.
Note that in the spreadsheet you originally sent… in the columns below, zerotime weight is 1192 and your header weight is listed as 20 pounds. In the next row, the header weight jumps to 30 (10 pounds heavier), and the total weight jumps to 1196 (4 pounds heavier). As I mentioned before the zerotime values come from the section above. This is why you have this discrepancy in your columns section. I have corrected your spreadsheet formulas (to include your 1 gallon unusable in the header) and I am attaching that corrected version here. You will see that the starting weight is 1202 in the corrected version (not 1192).
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary. 



David J. Gall
I always thought it was just 6 lbs./gal, not 6.1. Is this "inflation"? LOL
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Original Message
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 5:41 PM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200 Corbin Not trying to be picky, BUT, a US gallon of gas is 6.1 lbs. I think your math is using 5 lbs. My airplane weighs 339 KGs , flies 281 KPH and burns 19 litres per hr. Take care, from Canada Chris  This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com 



David J. Gall
Jay,
Please use defined names and named ranges when building your spreadsheets and formulas. It is soooo much easier to follow a spreadsheet formula that reads “=MainTankUseableFuel+1” than it is to follow a formula that reads “=R[6]C[3]+1” or “=C8+1” or, worse “=$C$8+1”.
Thank you,
David J. Gall
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 8:50 PM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
I built the original spreadsheet template, including the columns below that you are referencing, which I am well aware of. Details can be trivial, as in this case, but not always and it is important to be rigorous.
Note that in the spreadsheet you originally sent… in the columns below, zerotime weight is 1192 and your header weight is listed as 20 pounds. In the next row, the header weight jumps to 30 (10 pounds heavier), and the total weight jumps to 1196 (4 pounds heavier). As I mentioned before the zerotime values come from the section above. This is why you have this discrepancy in your columns section. I have corrected your spreadsheet formulas (to include your 1 gallon unusable in the header) and I am attaching that corrected version here. You will see that the starting weight is 1202 in the corrected version (not 1192).
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary. 



Corbin <c_geiser@...>
smh
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Corbin On Aug 8, 2022, at 7:49 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
 Corbin N121CG 



Jay Scheevel
I built the original spreadsheet template, including the columns below that you are referencing, which I am well aware of. Details can be trivial, as in this case, but not always and it is important to be rigorous.
Note that in the spreadsheet you originally sent… in the columns below, zerotime weight is 1192 and your header weight is listed as 20 pounds. In the next row, the header weight jumps to 30 (10 pounds heavier), and the total weight jumps to 1196 (4 pounds heavier). As I mentioned before the zerotime values come from the section above. This is why you have this discrepancy in your columns section. I have corrected your spreadsheet formulas (to include your 1 gallon unusable in the header) and I am attaching that corrected version here. You will see that the starting weight is 1202 in the corrected version (not 1192).
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 6:28 PM To: main@QList.groups.io Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary. 



Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Well, remember that I pointed out that "Weight" stops at "baggage". It is clearly not using 5lbs but I guess nobody looks at the actual data in the table. Scary.
Corbin N121CG 



Jay Scheevel
No need to belabor it further, but the upper section is a summary of weights and moments. There is a weight column, an arm column and a moment column, etc. for each item: pilot, passenger, baggage, fuel tanks, etc. The formula I highlighted is in the “weight” column and this is where Chris’ confusion stems from. Even if you don’t use that value in the columns below, you should clean it up in the section above. It is not right. I built the spreadsheet and it got changed to make a nonsensical formula in the weight column.
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 6:19 PM To: Q List <main@QList.groups.io> Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
That is the fuel burn rate. Not the weight. You need to look at the actual formula and weights down below. The fuel burn rate is 5 gallons per hour. That is not the weight. Look at the actual W/B down below.
Corbin




Corbin <c_geiser@...>
See the screenshot sent earlier and included again below.
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 Corbin N121CG 



Corbin <c_geiser@...>
That is the fuel burn rate. Not the weight. You need to look at the actual formula and weights down below. The fuel burn rate is 5 gallons per hour. That is not the weight. Look at the actual W/B down below.
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Corbin

Corbin N121CG 



Jay Scheevel
This is the spreadsheet you originally sent. I have highlighted cell column4/row8. The colors show which cells are reference in the formula. You can see the value is multiplying fuel volume by fuel burn.
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 4:57 PM To: Q List <main@QList.groups.io> Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
The answer is always in the formula and cell references. That formula is using fuel burn rate for the time component in the W/B. The header name of “Weight” is just through to baggage.
It is a relative reference for the fuel burn calculation below. He needs to look at the actual formula for the weight of the fuel further down in the W/B. For example, the first row shows 11 gallons of gas and 66 lbs which is the 10 gallons entered above in the cell he is looking at plus the 1 gallon of unusable fuel for a total of 11 gallons. The weight shows 66 lbs. The second row shows 10 gallons at 60 lbs and so on and so on. As time goes on (first column) the rate that fuel burns if 5 gallons per hour. This is how the total fuel in main decreases as time passes. The weight is updated by multiplying the gallons times 6lbs. If the relative reference, using fuel burn was not calculated then the time component in the first column would be inaccurate.
The screenshot shows what I am referring to quite easily.
Corbin




Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Corbin N121CG 



Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Can you screenshot the formula you are referring to? I am not showing where it is using 5lbs for fuel weight.
 Corbin N121CG 



Jay Scheevel
Ok, but if you check your spreadsheet formula in your column 4, you will find that it is multiplying the tank volume in gallons by the “fuel burn” to determine fuel weight. This is not right. If your fuel burn number happens to be 6 it is all works out, but your fuel burn number is 5. BTW, the Skibys used my spreadsheet as a template. I assisted them with the W&B computations on your airplane. Not sure when the formula for the fuel weight got switched, though.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 5:51 PM To: Q List <main@QList.groups.io> Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
I am using the one the builder(s) created specific to my plane. I think Chris is the one confused, not me. :)
Corbin




Corbin <c_geiser@...>
I am using the one the builder(s) created specific to my plane. I think Chris is the one confused, not me. :)
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Corbin

Corbin N121CG 



Jay Scheevel
See what you are saying, Corbin. However, if you used the spreadsheet that I sent you a while back as a template, the initial weight and moment are calculated in the upper section and then the weight/moment history are computed incrementally from that initial value using the fuel burn rate and weight of a gallon, in the columns below. Just trying to clear up the confusion. Here is my spreadsheet snapshot similar to yours.
From: main@QList.groups.io <main@QList.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 4:57 PM To: Q List <main@QList.groups.io> Subject: Re: [QList] Mission Changed  Time to Sell My Q200
The answer is always in the formula and cell references. That formula is using fuel burn rate for the time component in the W/B. The header name of “Weight” is just through to baggage.
It is a relative reference for the fuel burn calculation below. He needs to look at the actual formula for the weight of the fuel further down in the W/B. For example, the first row shows 11 gallons of gas and 66 lbs which is the 10 gallons entered above in the cell he is looking at plus the 1 gallon of unusable fuel for a total of 11 gallons. The weight shows 66 lbs. The second row shows 10 gallons at 60 lbs and so on and so on. As time goes on (first column) the rate that fuel burns if 5 gallons per hour. This is how the total fuel in main decreases as time passes. The weight is updated by multiplying the gallons times 6lbs. If the relative reference, using fuel burn was not calculated then the time component in the first column would be inaccurate.
The screenshot shows what I am referring to quite easily.
Corbin


