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Jay Scheevel
I use either ClickBond fasteners or EZ-point surface mount fasteners depending on the application. ClickBond products are available from: https://www.theflightshop.com/home/clickbondauthorizeddistributor and Aircraft Spruce (very limited selection). EZ-points are available from Spruce. Using these surface mounted fasters avoids having to penetrate the continuous fiberglass layup of the structure that you are trying to attach to. If you need a beefier mount point, you can add small patches of glass on top of the existing layup, then add the fastener to the top of that. I do not use the ClickBond adhesive, for a number of reasons. I have found that JB-Weld is the best alternative to attach both the ClickBond and the EZ-point fasterners. Surface preparation is the same as for standard epoxy layups. My 2-cents. Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Schmid Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 10:36 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts? Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Sam Hoskins
You can use a drill to countersink the head of the bolt into the phenolic. Then pack around the head with flox. For AN3, the bolt won't rotate.
Try not to cut into the skin when doing this.
As far as I can recall, the plans don't call for embedding in the canard. Better to just attach to the outside.
This may or may not help.
Sam
On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 11:36 AM Robert Schmid < robert@...> wrote: Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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I have one is countersink the back of a piece of phenolic for the bolt head to fit in then using a dremel just put a few cuts around the edge of the hole for a better grip. Put the bolt in most of the way before the head goes into the hole, then fill the hole with the flox mix and push the bolt in the rest of the way so the flox oozes out.
I rough up the faces of the bolt too.
Pretty sure it's not going to move.
On Tue., Oct. 4, 2022, 12:50 p.m. Jay Scheevel, < jay@...> wrote: I use either ClickBond fasteners or EZ-point surface mount fasteners depending on the application. ClickBond products are available from: https://www.theflightshop.com/home/clickbondauthorizeddistributor and Aircraft Spruce (very limited selection). EZ-points are available from Spruce. Using these surface mounted fasters avoids having to penetrate the continuous fiberglass layup of the structure that you are trying to attach to. If you need a beefier mount point, you can add small patches of glass on top of the existing layup, then add the fastener to the top of that. I do not use the ClickBond adhesive, for a number of reasons. I have found that JB-Weld is the best alternative to attach both the ClickBond and the EZ-point fasterners. Surface preparation is the same as for standard epoxy layups. My 2-cents. Cheers, Jay Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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You can buy a huge variety of studs on based ready to fix to a laminated surface by flox and BID pads here;
As to making AN hardware work in that context, take a drilled head bolt and open up the hole a little so it takes a short length of welding rod. After you pot that in a BID/flox matrix, you can use a metal locknut on it and it wont run round. In fact, removing such an installation is a Dremel job….
Bill Allen
You can use a drill to countersink the head of the bolt into the phenolic. Then pack around the head with flox. For AN3, the bolt won't rotate.
Try not to cut into the skin when doing this.
As far as I can recall, the plans don't call for embedding in the canard. Better to just attach to the outside.
This may or may not help.
Sam
On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 11:36 AM Robert Schmid < robert@...> wrote: Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Here's a picture of my rudder pedal mount
I have one is countersink the back of a piece of phenolic for the bolt head to fit in then using a dremel just put a few cuts around the edge of the hole for a better grip. Put the bolt in most of the way before the head goes into the hole, then fill the hole with the flox mix and push the bolt in the rest of the way so the flox oozes out.
I rough up the faces of the bolt too.
Pretty sure it's not going to move.
On Tue., Oct. 4, 2022, 12:50 p.m. Jay Scheevel, < jay@...> wrote: I use either ClickBond fasteners or EZ-point surface mount fasteners depending on the application. ClickBond products are available from: https://www.theflightshop.com/home/clickbondauthorizeddistributor and Aircraft Spruce (very limited selection). EZ-points are available from Spruce. Using these surface mounted fasters avoids having to penetrate the continuous fiberglass layup of the structure that you are trying to attach to. If you need a beefier mount point, you can add small patches of glass on top of the existing layup, then add the fastener to the top of that. I do not use the ClickBond adhesive, for a number of reasons. I have found that JB-Weld is the best alternative to attach both the ClickBond and the EZ-point fasterners. Surface preparation is the same as for standard epoxy layups. My 2-cents. Cheers, Jay Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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before drilling the bolt size hole, simply drill a hole in the phenolic slightly smaller than the measurement across the bolt head. Slide the bolt into the hole and hit the head of the bolt with a hammer. That bolt will not turn and no flox required.
I have one is countersink the back of a piece of phenolic for the bolt head to fit in then using a dremel just put a few cuts around the edge of the hole for a better grip. Put the bolt in most of the way before the head goes into the hole, then fill the hole with the flox mix and push the bolt in the rest of the way so the flox oozes out.
I rough up the faces of the bolt too.
Pretty sure it's not going to move.
On Tue., Oct. 4, 2022, 12:50 p.m. Jay Scheevel, < jay@...> wrote: I use either ClickBond fasteners or EZ-point surface mount fasteners depending on the application. ClickBond products are available from: https://www.theflightshop.com/home/clickbondauthorizeddistributor and Aircraft Spruce (very limited selection). EZ-points are available from Spruce. Using these surface mounted fasters avoids having to penetrate the continuous fiberglass layup of the structure that you are trying to attach to. If you need a beefier mount point, you can add small patches of glass on top of the existing layup, then add the fastener to the top of that. I do not use the ClickBond adhesive, for a number of reasons. I have found that JB-Weld is the best alternative to attach both the ClickBond and the EZ-point fasterners. Surface preparation is the same as for standard epoxy layups. My 2-cents. Cheers, Jay Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Jim Patillo
Hi Jerry, I explained this same thing to Robert in a phone call early this morning.
Regards,
Jim
N46JP - Q200
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jerry Marstall <jerrylm1986@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 3:01:01 PM
To: Q-list <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts?
before drilling the bolt size hole, simply drill a hole in the phenolic slightly smaller than the measurement across the bolt head. Slide the bolt into the hole and hit the head of the bolt with a hammer. That bolt will not turn and no flox
required.
I have one is countersink the back of a piece of phenolic for the bolt head to fit in then using a dremel just put a few cuts around the edge of the hole for a better grip.
Put the bolt in most of the way before the head goes into the hole, then fill the hole with the flox mix and push the bolt in the rest of the way so the flox oozes out.
I rough up the faces of the bolt too.
Pretty sure it's not going to move.
On Tue., Oct. 4, 2022, 12:50 p.m. Jay Scheevel, < jay@...> wrote:
I use either ClickBond fasteners or EZ-point surface mount fasteners depending on the application. ClickBond products are available from:
https://www.theflightshop.com/home/clickbondauthorizeddistributor and Aircraft Spruce (very limited selection). EZ-points are available from Spruce. Using these surface mounted fasters avoids having to penetrate the continuous fiberglass layup of the structure
that you are trying to attach to. If you need a beefier mount point, you can add small patches of glass on top of the existing layup, then add the fastener to the top of that.
I do not use the ClickBond adhesive, for a number of reasons. I have found that JB-Weld is the best alternative to attach both the ClickBond and the EZ-point fasterners. Surface preparation is the same as for standard epoxy layups. My
2-cents.
Cheers,
Jay
Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Hi Jim, Great. I am sure your explanation was better than mine. JM
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 8:53 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts? Hi Jerry, I explained this same thing to Robert in a phone call early this morning.
before drilling the bolt size hole, simply drill a hole in the phenolic slightly smaller than the measurement across the bolt head. Slide the bolt into the hole and hit the head of the bolt with a hammer. That bolt will not turn and no flox required. I have one is countersink the back of a piece of phenolic for the bolt head to fit in then using a dremel just put a few cuts around the edge of the hole for a better grip. Put the bolt in most of the way before the head goes into the hole, then fill the hole with the flox mix and push the bolt in the rest of the way so the flox oozes out. I rough up the faces of the bolt too. Pretty sure it's not going to move. On Tue., Oct. 4, 2022, 12:50 p.m. Jay Scheevel, <jay@...> wrote: I use either ClickBond fasteners or EZ-point surface mount fasteners depending on the application. ClickBond products are available from: https://www.theflightshop.com/home/clickbondauthorizeddistributor and Aircraft Spruce (very limited selection). EZ-points are available from Spruce. Using these surface mounted fasters avoids having to penetrate the continuous fiberglass layup of the structure that you are trying to attach to. If you need a beefier mount point, you can add small patches of glass on top of the existing layup, then add the fastener to the top of that. I do not use the ClickBond adhesive, for a number of reasons. I have found that JB-Weld is the best alternative to attach both the ClickBond and the EZ-point fasterners. Surface preparation is the same as for standard epoxy layups. My 2-cents. Cheers, Jay Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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So it turns out I found some ABS material to make the rudder mounts instead of phenolic. Might as well just epoxy those in like phenolic with BID on the sides. Thanks for everyones help, very much appreciated!!! -- Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid (408) 805-5450 www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscoswww.theflyingfriscos.comLove building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Sam Hoskins
Why ABS? I don't think that epoxy adheres to it. Just use phenolic, it's what the plans call for and it's proven.
Sam
On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 8:04 PM Robert Schmid < robert@...> wrote: So it turns out I found some ABS material to make the rudder mounts instead of phenolic. Might as well just epoxy those in like phenolic with BID on the sides.
Thanks for everyones help, very much appreciated!!!
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Jay Scheevel
You are correct, Sam. ABS has a permanently “greasy” finish regardless of what texture you put on it. Epoxy will not bond properly to it. I agree, use phenolic. Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2022 6:46 AM To: main@q-list.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts? Why ABS? I don't think that epoxy adheres to it. Just use phenolic, it's what the plans call for and it's proven. On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 8:04 PM Robert Schmid <robert@...> wrote: So it turns out I found some ABS material to make the rudder mounts instead of phenolic. Might as well just epoxy those in like phenolic with BID on the sides.
Thanks for everyones help, very much appreciated!!!
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Jim Patillo
Like I said, I called Robert yesterday morning early and explained to him, exactly how do this with phenolic and a Dremel tool. Same as Jerry and Sam explained later. Build to plan if you don't know what you're doing and only add changes that
are proven and time tested.
Changes like this “ABS Material" are what gets a "Newbe" in trouble down the road. I've learned to quit giving advice unless someone is really asking for help. Follow the builders plans, for the most part, that can save your skin.
Jim
N46JP -Q200
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2022 6:53:08 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts?
You are correct, Sam. ABS has a permanently “greasy” finish regardless of what texture you put on it. Epoxy will not bond properly to it. I agree, use phenolic.
Cheers,
Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2022 6:46 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts?
Why ABS? I don't think that epoxy adheres to it. Just use phenolic, it's what the plans call for and it's proven.
On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 8:04 PM Robert Schmid <robert@...> wrote:
So it turns out I found some ABS material to make the rudder mounts instead of phenolic. Might as well just epoxy those in like phenolic with BID on the sides.
Thanks for everyones help, very much appreciated!!!
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Like I said, I called Robert yesterday morning early and explained to him, exactly how do this with phenolic and a Dremel tool. Same as Jerry and Sam explained later. Build to plan if you don't know what you're doing and only add changes that
are proven and time tested.
Changes like this “ABS Material" are what gets a "Newbe" in trouble down the road. I've learned to quit giving advice unless someone is really asking for help. Follow the builders plans, for the most part, that can save your skin.
Jim
N46JP -Q200
You are correct, Sam. ABS has a permanently “greasy” finish regardless of what texture you put on it. Epoxy will not bond properly to it. I agree, use phenolic.
Cheers,
Jay
Why ABS? I don't think that epoxy adheres to it. Just use phenolic, it's what the plans call for and it's proven.
On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 8:04 PM Robert Schmid <robert@...> wrote:
So it turns out I found some ABS material to make the rudder mounts instead of phenolic. Might as well just epoxy those in like phenolic with BID on the sides.
Thanks for everyones help, very much appreciated!!!
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
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Robert----------- If you are making a phenolic fitting like in Mikes pictures, do not drill for the rudder pedals until after the phenolic is split in two and the bolts are attached. If you drill and then cut the phenolic in two the tubes will be too tight.
Have fun------------- Chris
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Smart solutions!
Listen to Bill, he knows of what he speaks!
On Tuesday, October 4, 2022, 3:09 pm, Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote: You can buy a huge variety of studs on based ready to fix to a laminated surface by flox and BID pads here;
As to making AN hardware work in that context, take a drilled head bolt and open up the hole a little so it takes a short length of welding rod. After you pot that in a BID/flox matrix, you can use a metal locknut on it and it wont run round. In fact, removing such an installation is a Dremel job….
Bill Allen You can use a drill to countersink the head of the bolt into the phenolic. Then pack around the head with flox. For AN3, the bolt won't rotate.
Try not to cut into the skin when doing this.
As far as I can recall, the plans don't call for embedding in the canard. Better to just attach to the outside.
This may or may not help.
Sam
On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 11:36 AM Robert Schmid < robert@...> wrote: Silly question I am sure but I am struggling with floxing in AN bolts, or SS Grade 8 ones for that matter, to mount various things inside the plane, some more structural than others. What I do know is ...
1 - I'd use phenolic as the base with the bolt thru it,
2 - then cover the phenolic with 2 layers of BID but ...
How do I make sure the bolt doesn't slip when I put on the nut?
Do I always need to cut the foam out to attach the phenolic to the outside instead of inside skin?
What about embedding in the canard?
Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450
www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com
Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.
--
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I am using thick teflon for the rudders in my Glasair, BUT, they are bolted down , not glued.--------------- Chris
--
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Jay Scheevel
If you are looking to reduce friction/wear in the phenolic blocks where the torque tubes pass through, you can oversize the holes and then fit Rulon shoulder bushings (available from McMaster Car). I think that Jim P and Bob Farnum came up with this idea and I have used these liberally in my plane (elevator, ailerons, and rudder), all with good results. The structural portion of the mounts should still be phenolic, but if you drill these out to accommodate the bushing, it is best to make outside dimensions of the phenolic larger, or reinforce with glass, so as to not lose any structural strength or rigidity.
Cheers,
Jay
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2022 11:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Floxing In AN bolts?
I am using thick teflon for the rudders in my Glasair, BUT, they are bolted down , not glued.--------------- Chris
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Yes Chris A seemingly minor thing I forgot to mention in trying to be concise, but important. I put the 2 pieces together then used a shorter bolt just to keep them aligned while clamped in the vice, drilled out for the torque tubes Then floxed in the proper length bolt.
Not much gets past you guys. Incredible amount of knowledge here!
Mike S
On Wed., Oct. 5, 2022, 1:46 p.m. Chris Walterson, < dkeats@...> wrote: Robert----------- If you are making a phenolic fitting like in Mikes
pictures, do not drill for the rudder pedals until after the phenolic
is split in two and the bolts are attached. If you drill and then cut
the phenolic in two the tubes will be too tight.
Have fun------------- Chris
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