|
Richard Thomson
Thanks Mike,
That sounds like mine has a similar set up, so that's always
encouraging.
Pretty aircraft the Velocity, with all that commonality to
the TriQ, well the nose wheel fork at least !
Hope your back in the air soon.
Rich T.
On 20/10/2022 00:11, Mike Dwyer wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Richard.
The Q200 had early on the two piece venturi and later the
single piece venturi. Both worked well.
It had two layers of plastic screen over the cold air input
as a rock filter but nothing else.
I always read the Q-List and comment when I've got some
data! Been working hard on a fancy upgraded Velocity
(friends, not mine) so I can get back in the air soon! Kinda
thinking of getting a couple electric scooters and tossing
them in the rear seats! Always hated getting somewhere and
then having to find ground transport.
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:18
AM Richard Thomson < richard@...>
wrote:
Great Carb Mike, do you know what venturi were you using
? Also did you have a full filter on the carb intake /
heat box ?
Rich T
On 19/10/2022 00:33, Mike Dwyer wrote:
I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500
feet, probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet
higher than that with no issue seen. Typically using no
ethanol auto gas. I had 500 fpm climb rate left at
14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb.
Mike Dwyer xQ200
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022,
14:25 Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) < robert.kidd@...>
wrote:
Jay,
I found your post to be very
interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was
returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in
a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL,
leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted
to climb higher to clear some terrain and at
about 10k’ my engine stumbled and began to run
rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned
up momentarily before it continued to run rough,
so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling
along. I have experienced this before when
running Mogas, and thought I had cured the
problem with a replacement fuel line between my
gascolator and the carb, and installing
firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able
to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I
had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8
ratio), and was surprised to once again
experience symptoms of vapor locking. I was
almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing
but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full
carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally
having to pump the throttle to keep it running,
I descended to about 6700’, skirting the east
corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to
run reasonably. I was able to adjust the
mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat
setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel
stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to
adjust the carb heat off. After I landed at
Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight
home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up
to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when
I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had
enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues
with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but
maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some
other reason that I haven’t worked out yet.
I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump
somewhere in the system, to turn on when this
event happens. I don’t suppose most of the
Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes.
Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2
that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your
insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
Not to get too far over my
skis here, but when I did the comprehensive
summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I
found that the number one cause of engine
failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery
(Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or
fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the
statistics in homebuilts in general, so is
important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel
delivery system’s reliability from near sea
level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does
behave differently depending on altitude. By
this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion,
but flow through fuel lines, pumps, induction
air and regulator all behave differently. If
you have not tested your fuel system for robust
reliability at all altitudes within your
altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as
you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow
may suddenly become unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your
original question, your engine-altitude
performance may be a complicating issue, because
in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain
sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area
if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just
curious what happens to learn from that! In my
case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never
flew one before and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at
10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
wrote:
Looks like the
engine was not running, so I don’t
think it was a performance question.
What I am saying,
since the airplane is based in
Vancouver, so that the pilot would
have a lot to handle, first with the
engine out, next with the density
altitude that was likely over 11,000’,
then with wind and possibly gusty
wind. Was a good landing, all of that
considered.
My thought is that
she went for the pavement, but
probably broke the canard on the road
and then veered off into the sage
brush. Not a bad strategy, actually,
given those conditions!
Also looks like new
blacktop with a huge shoulder drop
off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it
was maybe above it’s max ceiling at
10,000MSL? And that may have caused
the engine out? What is the max
ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or
Dfly?
Fredd
Baber
On
Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay
Scheevel <jay@...>
wrote:
|
|
|
Jay Scheevel
Just for fun, I plotted the maximum and minimum density altitude for all of my flights so far in my Jabiru 3300 powered Tri-Q2. Here is the plot. The X axis is Hobbs time, the Y axis is density altitude. BTW on the way back from FOD’s last month, I set my DA take-off record at Walden, CO (not too far from where the Canadian Q2 went down in Wyoming). DA was over 10,000’ on that take off! Cheers, Jay 
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Dwyer Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2022 5:11 PM To: main@q-list.groups.io Subject: Re: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down Hi Richard. The Q200 had early on the two piece venturi and later the single piece venturi. Both worked well. It had two layers of plastic screen over the cold air input as a rock filter but nothing else. I always read the Q-List and comment when I've got some data! Been working hard on a fancy upgraded Velocity (friends, not mine) so I can get back in the air soon! Kinda thinking of getting a couple electric scooters and tossing them in the rear seats! Always hated getting somewhere and then having to find ground transport. On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:18 AM Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote: Great Carb Mike, do you know what venturi were you using ? Also did you have a full filter on the carb intake / heat box ? Rich T On 19/10/2022 00:33, Mike Dwyer wrote: I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500 feet, probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet higher than that with no issue seen. Typically using no ethanol auto gas. I had 500 fpm climb rate left at 14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb. On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 14:25 Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) <robert.kidd@...> wrote: Jay, I found your post to be very interesting. Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled and began to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the problem with a replacement fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to once again experience symptoms of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’, skirting the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the carb heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’. I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t worked out yet. I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down in Wyoming… Thanks for sharing your insights. Robert Kidd Logan, UT Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general, so is important even if not building a Q. I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines, pumps, induction air and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly become unreliable. So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem develops. Cheers, Jay Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn! On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question. What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing, all of that considered. My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions! Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off. Cheers, Jay Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly? Fredd Baber On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
Hi Richard. The Q200 had early on the two piece venturi and later the single piece venturi. Both worked well. It had two layers of plastic screen over the cold air input as a rock filter but nothing else. I always read the Q-List and comment when I've got some data! Been working hard on a fancy upgraded Velocity (friends, not mine) so I can get back in the air soon! Kinda thinking of getting a couple electric scooters and tossing them in the rear seats! Always hated getting somewhere and then having to find ground transport.
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:18 AM Richard Thomson < richard@...> wrote:
Great Carb Mike, do you know what venturi were you using ? Also
did you have a full filter on the carb intake / heat box ?
Rich T
On 19/10/2022 00:33, Mike Dwyer wrote:
I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500 feet,
probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet higher than that
with no issue seen. Typically using no ethanol auto gas. I had
500 fpm climb rate left at 14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb.
Mike Dwyer xQ200
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 14:25
Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) < robert.kidd@...>
wrote:
Jay,
I found your post to be very
interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to
Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was
cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back
slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some
terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled and began
to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned
up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full
rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have
experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought
I had cured the problem with a replacement fuel line
between my gascolator and the carb, and installing
firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly
to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of
Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised
to once again experience symptoms of vapor locking. I
was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but
opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat,
full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the
throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’,
skirting the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it
started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the
mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting
as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I
closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the carb heat
off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest
of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed
back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run
straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I
couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was
running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some
other reason that I haven’t worked out yet. I’ve
wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the
system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t
suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these
altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2
that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
Not to get too far over my skis here,
but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident
statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found
that the number one cause of engine failure was actually
a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel
delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike
the statistics in homebuilts in general, so is
important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery
system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet.
I find that my system does behave differently depending
on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and
carburetion, but flow through fuel lines, pumps,
induction air and regulator all behave differently. If
you have not tested your fuel system for robust
reliability at all altitudes within your altitude
envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the
envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly become
unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original
question, your engine-altitude performance may be a
complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not
be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe
landing area if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious
what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm
still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before
and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM
Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
wrote:
Looks like the engine was
not running, so I don’t think it was a
performance question.
What I am saying, since the
airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the
pilot would have a lot to handle, first with
the engine out, next with the density altitude
that was likely over 11,000’, then with wind
and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing,
all of that considered.
My thought is that she went
for the pavement, but probably broke the
canard on the road and then veered off into
the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually,
given those conditions!
Also looks like new
blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was
maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL?
And that may have caused the engine out? What
is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2
or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17,
2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
wrote:
|
|
|
Ben Wilson
Mike, So glad you’re back! As a senior statesman, your results/ideas are always welcome. Ben
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Dwyer Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 4:33 PM To: main@q-list.groups.io Subject: Re: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500 feet, probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet higher than that with no issue seen. Typically using no ethanol auto gas. I had 500 fpm climb rate left at 14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb. On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 14:25 Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) <robert.kidd@...> wrote: Jay, I found your post to be very interesting. Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled and began to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the problem with a replacement fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to once again experience symptoms of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’, skirting the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the carb heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’. I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t worked out yet. I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down in Wyoming… Thanks for sharing your insights. Robert Kidd Logan, UT Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general, so is important even if not building a Q. I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines, pumps, induction air and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly become unreliable. So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem develops. Cheers, Jay Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn! On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote: Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question. What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing, all of that considered. My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions! Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off. Cheers, Jay Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly? Fredd Baber On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
Richard Thomson
Great Carb Mike, do you know what venturi were you using ? Also
did you have a full filter on the carb intake / heat box ?
Rich T
On 19/10/2022 00:33, Mike Dwyer wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500 feet,
probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet higher than that
with no issue seen. Typically using no ethanol auto gas. I had
500 fpm climb rate left at 14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb.
Mike Dwyer xQ200
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 14:25
Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) < robert.kidd@...>
wrote:
Jay,
I found your post to be very
interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to
Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was
cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back
slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some
terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled and began
to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned
up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full
rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have
experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought
I had cured the problem with a replacement fuel line
between my gascolator and the carb, and installing
firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly
to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of
Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised
to once again experience symptoms of vapor locking. I
was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but
opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat,
full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the
throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’,
skirting the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it
started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the
mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting
as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I
closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the carb heat
off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest
of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed
back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run
straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I
couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was
running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some
other reason that I haven’t worked out yet. I’ve
wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the
system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t
suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these
altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2
that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
Not to get too far over my skis here,
but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident
statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found
that the number one cause of engine failure was actually
a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel
delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike
the statistics in homebuilts in general, so is
important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery
system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet.
I find that my system does behave differently depending
on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and
carburetion, but flow through fuel lines, pumps,
induction air and regulator all behave differently. If
you have not tested your fuel system for robust
reliability at all altitudes within your altitude
envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the
envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly become
unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original
question, your engine-altitude performance may be a
complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not
be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe
landing area if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious
what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm
still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before
and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM
Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
wrote:
Looks like the engine was
not running, so I don’t think it was a
performance question.
What I am saying, since the
airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the
pilot would have a lot to handle, first with
the engine out, next with the density altitude
that was likely over 11,000’, then with wind
and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing,
all of that considered.
My thought is that she went
for the pavement, but probably broke the
canard on the road and then veered off into
the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually,
given those conditions!
Also looks like new
blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was
maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL?
And that may have caused the engine out? What
is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2
or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17,
2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
wrote:
|
|
|
Jim Patillo
Brad Olsen and I made a trip back from OSH to Bay Area at 14,500’ over the mountains.
Later that year, I got a clearance and vectors from Nor Cal to “ test climb”. The plane was hanging on the prop at 19,500’ with no more poop. It was just very mushy. The trip up was nominally 500-750 fpm. My 0200 with
9:4.1 pistons and dual Plasma 3 Lightspeed Ignitions felt fairly normal.
Funnily side note; a SW737 passed off my right side close up (opposite direction, headed to SFO) at about 19k and I’ve often wondered if a kid may have been looking out the window and said mommy, mommy a giant
bird just flew by AND she said ok just sit down, be quiet and fasten your seat belt.
Jim
N46JP Q200
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 4:33:08 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down
I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500 feet, probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet higher than that with no issue seen. Typically using no ethanol auto gas. I had 500 fpm climb rate left at 14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb.
Mike Dwyer xQ200
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 14:25 Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) < robert.kidd@...> wrote:
Jay,
I found your post to be very interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine
stumbled and began to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the
problem with a replacement fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to
once again experience symptoms of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended
to about 6700’, skirting the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding,
I was able to adjust the carb heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t
worked out yet. I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down
in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general,
so is important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines,
pumps, induction air and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly
become unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem
develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question.
What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind.
Was a good landing, all of that considered.
My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions!
Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
I used to operate my Q200 at 12 to 14,500 feet, probably density altitudes at least 2000 feet higher than that with no issue seen. Typically using no ethanol auto gas. I had 500 fpm climb rate left at 14,000 ft. MA3SPA carb. Mike Dwyer xQ200
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 14:25 Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) < robert.kidd@...> wrote:
Jay,
I found your post to be very interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled
and began to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the problem with
a replacement fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to once again experience
symptoms of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’, skirting
the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the
carb heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t worked
out yet. I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general,
so is important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines,
pumps, induction air and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly
become unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question.
What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely
over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing, all of that considered.
My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions!
Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
One Sky Dog
Robert,
The higher you get the lower the boiling point. Plumbing turbulence can initiate vapor locking. Vapor locking is a complicated issue. Mogas formulation constantly changes but the vapor pressure 8 to 14 psi is almost twice that of av gas at 5.5 to 7 psi.
When my fuel system vapor locked 100 LL I could not get it cleared before 0 AGL. I have since changed to an aircraft carb like yours. I do not plan on running car gas in my Corvair engine or my Tri-Pacer Lycoming.
Regards,
On Tuesday, October 18, 2022, 11:25 AM, Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) <robert.kidd@...> wrote:
Jay,
I found your post to be very interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled
and began to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the problem with
a replacement fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to once again experience
symptoms of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’, skirting
the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the
carb heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t worked
out yet. I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 8:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down
Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general,
so is important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines,
pumps, induction air and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly
become unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question.
What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely
over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing, all of that considered.
My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions!
Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
Frankenbird Vern
I've had my 150B model to 12,000+ when I was on a cross country over Southern Texas and Louisiana en route from St. Augustine Florida. That was prior to the STC to mogas but after I converted the aircraft to the tail dragger mod. The 0-200 was healthy but at
that altitude the climb rate is weak to be sure. I do not remember flying over 10,000 after STC to mogas but never once experienced conditions you mention Robert.
It does sound like vapor lock. Probably better is maintaining positive pressure in the header fuel tank of the Q2 if gravity fed. The size of fuel lines feeding the carburetor or throttle body would make a difference also. Does anyone know the owner of the
successfully landed Q in the storyline? Would be interesting to learn of the details pilot to pilot.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS) <robert.kidd@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 12:31 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down
Jay,
I found your post to be very interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled and began to run
rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the problem with a replacement
fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to once again experience symptoms
of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’, skirting the
east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the carb
heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t worked out yet. I’ve wondered
about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 8:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down
Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general,
so is important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines, pumps, induction air
and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly become unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question.
What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing, all
of that considered.
My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions!
Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
Jay,
I found your post to be very interesting.
Sunday afternoon I was returning to Logan Utah from Halfway Oregon, in a Cessna 150. Was cruising along at 9,500 MSL, leaned and throttled back slightly. I attempted to climb higher to clear some terrain and at about 10k’ my engine stumbled
and began to run rough. I pulled the carb heat on and it cleaned up momentarily before it continued to run rough, so full rich mixture added kept it stumbling along. I have experienced this before when running Mogas, and thought I had cured the problem with
a replacement fuel line between my gascolator and the carb, and installing firesleeve over that fuel line. I’ve been able to fly to 10,500 without issues, and this time I had a mix of Mogas and Avgas (about a 5:8 ratio), and was surprised to once again experience
symptoms of vapor locking. I was almost over Idaho City (U98) and debated landing but opted to turn south to lower terrain. Full carb heat, full rich carb mix, and occasionally having to pump the throttle to keep it running, I descended to about 6700’, skirting
the east corner of Boise’s airspace, before it started to run reasonably. I was able to adjust the mixture, but still had to maintain the carb heat setting as I made my way to Gooding for a fuel stop. As I closed in on Gooding, I was able to adjust the
carb heat off. After I landed at Gooding and fueled up, the rest of the flight home was uneventful, even when I climbed back up to 9,500’.
I’ve never had an issue when I’ve run straight Avgas, and thought I had enough Avgas that I couldn’t have any issues with the mixture of Mogas I was running, but maybe somebody’s chemistry changed, or some other reason that I haven’t worked
out yet. I’ve wondered about installing a fuel pump somewhere in the system, to turn on when this event happens. I don’t suppose most of the Cessna 150’s are operating at these altitudes. Perhaps something similar happened to the Q2 that went down in Wyoming…
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Robert Kidd
Logan, UT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 8:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: EXT :Re: [Q-List] Q2 down
Not to get too far over my skis here, but when I did the comprehensive summary of Q accident statistics (http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/Quickie
Type Aircraft Accident Analysis.pdf ), I found that the number one cause of engine failure was actually a failure in fuel delivery (Fuel starvation due to fuel delivery problem or fuel exhaustion). This is not unlike the statistics in homebuilts in general,
so is important even if not building a Q.
I have tested my fuel delivery system’s reliability from near sea level to 18,000 feet. I find that my system does behave differently depending on altitude. By this, I mean not just mixture and carburetion, but flow through fuel lines,
pumps, induction air and regulator all behave differently. If you have not tested your fuel system for robust reliability at all altitudes within your altitude envelope, then caution is warranted as you expand the envelope, because the fuel flow may suddenly
become unreliable.
So indirectly, going to your original question, your engine-altitude performance may be a complicating issue, because in high terrain, you may not be able to maintain sufficient AGL to glide to a safe landing area if an engine problem develops.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay I agree we are just curious what happens to learn from that! In my case I'm still rebuilding my Quickie and never flew one before and want to learn!
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
Looks like the engine was not running, so I don’t think it was a performance question.
What I am saying, since the airplane is based in Vancouver, so that the pilot would have a lot to handle, first with the engine out, next with the density altitude that was likely
over 11,000’, then with wind and possibly gusty wind. Was a good landing, all of that considered.
My thought is that she went for the pavement, but probably broke the canard on the road and then veered off into the sage brush. Not a bad strategy, actually, given those conditions!
Also looks like new blacktop with a huge shoulder drop off.
Cheers,
Jay
Jay- are saying it was maybe above it’s max ceiling at 10,000MSL? And that may have caused the engine out? What is the max ceiling for a VW engine powered Q2 or Dfly?
Fredd Baber
On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:40 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
|
|
|
