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  2. Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Hey Jim,

The lower RPM is actually the main reason I was installing this ignition system.  Klaus says it will add RPM but I think he must mean in cruise and not idle.

Klaus seemed to think we had installed everything correctly and that we didn't rock the prop fast enough.  We tried again and then used the starter and still couldn't get a spark.  I am going to reach out to him again today to see if I should try new magnet sensors.

Corbin

On November 9, 2020 at 11:02 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:

Corbin, you will not regret putting in Lightspeed electronic ignitions once you get them working. Hang in there, you’ll get it.
You’ll be able to idle at 450 rpm which is good for landings on shorter runways and can run faster higher up.

What’s Klaus offering in the way of help?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:17:21 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
Well, no luck tonight.  No spark rocking back and forth at #1 TDC, no luck rotating prop faster, and no luck having the starter have a go at it.  

At this point, I’m assuming the sensor(s) are bad.  Ugh.  Wishing I had never tried upgrading to electronic ignition at this point and ready to put the mags back on.

Corbin

On Nov 9, 2020, at 1:56 PM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

Follow up to keep records of information learned.  

Klaus' best guess is that we just need to rock the prop a bit faster.  He believes we have everything else correct.  We will try that tonight and, if no luck, might just let the starter give it a go in order to see if it can get a spark from the coil.  Leads are not connected, of course.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR
Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Correction:  It is the Mini Sensor and not the Hall Effect (not sure it matters but wanted to correct that bit of info I sent earlier).
--

Corbin 
N33QR
Bruce Crain
 

Also, the Electroair Electronic Ignition says don't power up the unit without the leads connected to the plugs as it can damage the unit!  Still apples to oranges.
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Bruce Crain" <jcrain2@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:14:35 -0600

The pickup for the Electroair needs 500 ohms to check “good”.  Ohm it out.  This may be apples to oranges though.  Different company.

Bruce

 

On Nov 9, 2020, at 11:06 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

A hall sensor measures presence of a magnetic field (or not). A simple magnetic sensor (coil) will see a “double” peak as the magnet passes. Not sure which type of sensor Klaus is using, but I suspect it is a hall sensor.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 9:51 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

I just went through the same issue on my Cozy installation. Everything checked out but still no sparks. Eventually traced it to the mini-sensor not being correctly aligned to the trigger ring. Aligned both in distance from and vertical to it.

 

Question; can you get a spark by passing a magnet (South Pole) over the mini sensor?

 

 

Bill Allen

 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 17:33, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

That usually is a sign that the sensor is not picking up the trigger on the crank.  Check the spacing etc.  I have installed several of these in the past with 0 issues so it is probably something simple.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday November 9 2020 8:12:44AM
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

 
Martin Skiby
 

Just fire it up and see if it works!


-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday November 10 2020 4:40:02AM
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Hey Jim,

The lower RPM is actually the main reason I was installing this ignition system.  Klaus says it will add RPM but I think he must mean in cruise and not idle.

Klaus seemed to think we had installed everything correctly and that we didn't rock the prop fast enough.  We tried again and then used the starter and still couldn't get a spark.  I am going to reach out to him again today to see if I should try new magnet sensors.

Corbin

On November 9, 2020 at 11:02 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:

Corbin, you will not regret putting in Lightspeed electronic ignitions once you get them working. Hang in there, you’ll get it.
You’ll be able to idle at 450 rpm which is good for landings on shorter runways and can run faster higher up.

What’s Klaus offering in the way of help?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:17:21 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
Well, no luck tonight.  No spark rocking back and forth at #1 TDC, no luck rotating prop faster, and no luck having the starter have a go at it.  

At this point, I’m assuming the sensor(s) are bad.  Ugh.  Wishing I had never tried upgrading to electronic ignition at this point and ready to put the mags back on.

Corbin

On Nov 9, 2020, at 1:56 PM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

Follow up to keep records of information learned.  

Klaus' best guess is that we just need to rock the prop a bit faster.  He believes we have everything else correct.  We will try that tonight and, if no luck, might just let the starter give it a go in order to see if it can get a spark from the coil.  Leads are not connected, of course.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR
Martin Skiby
 

Dude you are fighting yourself on this.  Set it up as the instructions show and fire it up.  Rocking the prop back and forth and trying to get a spark is frustrating you.  Try using the starter and see if it fires up and runs.  That is the only way to know.  You will wear yourself out trying to trigger a sensor that needs 500rpm or so to do just to see if you have a spark.  You will know right away if it starts.

MY opinion.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday November 10 2020 4:40:02AM
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Hey Jim,

The lower RPM is actually the main reason I was installing this ignition system.  Klaus says it will add RPM but I think he must mean in cruise and not idle.

Klaus seemed to think we had installed everything correctly and that we didn't rock the prop fast enough.  We tried again and then used the starter and still couldn't get a spark.  I am going to reach out to him again today to see if I should try new magnet sensors.

Corbin

On November 9, 2020 at 11:02 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:

Corbin, you will not regret putting in Lightspeed electronic ignitions once you get them working. Hang in there, you’ll get it.
You’ll be able to idle at 450 rpm which is good for landings on shorter runways and can run faster higher up.

What’s Klaus offering in the way of help?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:17:21 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
Well, no luck tonight.  No spark rocking back and forth at #1 TDC, no luck rotating prop faster, and no luck having the starter have a go at it.  

At this point, I’m assuming the sensor(s) are bad.  Ugh.  Wishing I had never tried upgrading to electronic ignition at this point and ready to put the mags back on.

Corbin

On Nov 9, 2020, at 1:56 PM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

Follow up to keep records of information learned.  

Klaus' best guess is that we just need to rock the prop a bit faster.  He believes we have everything else correct.  We will try that tonight and, if no luck, might just let the starter give it a go in order to see if it can get a spark from the coil.  Leads are not connected, of course.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR
Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Martin,

I think you are missing the first update from this morning (it is the one you replied to).  Setting up per instructions and firing it up with the starter did not work.  The rocking of the prop back and forth was in response to the question of what Klaus recommended.  We tried both.

Corbin

On November 10, 2020 at 9:03 AM, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

Dude you are fighting yourself on this.  Set it up as the instructions show and fire it up.  Rocking the prop back and forth and trying to get a spark is frustrating you.  Try using the starter and see if it fires up and runs.  That is the only way to know.  You will wear yourself out trying to trigger a sensor that needs 500rpm or so to do just to see if you have a spark.  You will know right away if it starts.

MY opinion.


-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday November 10 2020 4:40:02AM
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Hey Jim,

The lower RPM is actually the main reason I was installing this ignition system.  Klaus says it will add RPM but I think he must mean in cruise and not idle.

Klaus seemed to think we had installed everything correctly and that we didn't rock the prop fast enough.  We tried again and then used the starter and still couldn't get a spark.  I am going to reach out to him again today to see if I should try new magnet sensors.

Corbin

On November 9, 2020 at 11:02 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:

Corbin, you will not regret putting in Lightspeed electronic ignitions once you get them working. Hang in there, you’ll get it.
You’ll be able to idle at 450 rpm which is good for landings on shorter runways and can run faster higher up.

What’s Klaus offering in the way of help?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:17:21 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
Well, no luck tonight.  No spark rocking back and forth at #1 TDC, no luck rotating prop faster, and no luck having the starter have a go at it.  

At this point, I’m assuming the sensor(s) are bad.  Ugh.  Wishing I had never tried upgrading to electronic ignition at this point and ready to put the mags back on.

Corbin

On Nov 9, 2020, at 1:56 PM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

Follow up to keep records of information learned.  

Klaus' best guess is that we just need to rock the prop a bit faster.  He believes we have everything else correct.  We will try that tonight and, if no luck, might just let the starter give it a go in order to see if it can get a spark from the coil.  Leads are not connected, of course.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR
Martin Skiby
 

My apologies.  Yes sorry I should have started earlier in the conversation.

Carry on.  Interested to see the outcome.

Martin

 


On Nov 10, 2020, at 8:43 AM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:


Martin,

I think you are missing the first update from this morning (it is the one you replied to).  Setting up per instructions and firing it up with the starter did not work.  The rocking of the prop back and forth was in response to the question of what Klaus recommended.  We tried both.

Corbin

On November 10, 2020 at 9:03 AM, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

Dude you are fighting yourself on this.  Set it up as the instructions show and fire it up.  Rocking the prop back and forth and trying to get a spark is frustrating you.  Try using the starter and see if it fires up and runs.  That is the only way to know.  You will wear yourself out trying to trigger a sensor that needs 500rpm or so to do just to see if you have a spark.  You will know right away if it starts.

MY opinion.


-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday November 10 2020 4:40:02AM
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Hey Jim,

The lower RPM is actually the main reason I was installing this ignition system.  Klaus says it will add RPM but I think he must mean in cruise and not idle.

Klaus seemed to think we had installed everything correctly and that we didn't rock the prop fast enough.  We tried again and then used the starter and still couldn't get a spark.  I am going to reach out to him again today to see if I should try new magnet sensors.

Corbin

On November 9, 2020 at 11:02 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:

Corbin, you will not regret putting in Lightspeed electronic ignitions once you get them working. Hang in there, you’ll get it.
You’ll be able to idle at 450 rpm which is good for landings on shorter runways and can run faster higher up.

What’s Klaus offering in the way of help?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:17:21 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
Well, no luck tonight.  No spark rocking back and forth at #1 TDC, no luck rotating prop faster, and no luck having the starter have a go at it.  

At this point, I’m assuming the sensor(s) are bad.  Ugh.  Wishing I had never tried upgrading to electronic ignition at this point and ready to put the mags back on.

Corbin

On Nov 9, 2020, at 1:56 PM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

Follow up to keep records of information learned.  

Klaus' best guess is that we just need to rock the prop a bit faster.  He believes we have everything else correct.  We will try that tonight and, if no luck, might just let the starter give it a go in order to see if it can get a spark from the coil.  Leads are not connected, of course.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin 
N33QR

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Just in case anyone was curious about an update, I thought I would let you know still no luck after trying again last night.

Klaus recommended we troubleshoot the input signal test but that passed as well-meaning the current is flowing from the sensor to the input on the ignition boxes.  Just to be certain, we went through all troubleshooting steps again with no luck.  Sensor alignment triple checked, 5v passes to input and we have output back to coils.  At this point, all signs seem to be pointing towards the magnet plate so we the only thing left to try, that we could think of, is passing the South pole of a magnet by the sensor to see if we can get the volt drop.  

In the meantime, we will see what else Klaus recommends.

--

Corbin 
N33QR
Jim Patillo
 

How much gap do you have between the magnet and pickup?

Jim
N46JP Q200
Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

We are closer to .030" in the range of .030" to .060" since the crankshaft on the O-200 doesn't move back and forth much.   I want to say we left it around .032".
--

Corbin 
N33QR
Jim Patillo
 

Is battery fully charged and supplying 12V+ to both ignitions?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:37:46 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
We are closer to .030" in the range of .030" to .060" since the crankshaft on the O-200 doesn't move back and forth much.   I want to say we left it around .032".
--

Corbin 
N33QR

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Good question. Yes, we have a full 12v to both ignitions.  We have only run the starter 3-4 times and are still showing 12v but have a battery charger ready in case it drops during further testing.
--

Corbin 
N33QR
Paul Fisher
 

(one more stupid question)
Are you sure pins 1 and 9 are NOT connected together on the output connector?  Connecting those two pins together shuts off the ignition - just like a p-lead on a magneto.

Like I said, stupid question, but I couldn't help asking!

Paul

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 12:03 Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Good question. Yes, we have a full 12v to both ignitions.  We have only run the starter 3-4 times and are still showing 12v but have a battery charger ready in case it drops during further testing.
--

Corbin 
N33QR

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

All questions welcome and this might actually be a good one as well.  I noticed on the RV forum that one guy noticed his pin 1 and 9 and had a solder issue connecting them together.  I will need to confer with Marcus, my avionics guy, to be 100%.  I know he thoroughly checked all the pins a  few times and saw the voltage he wanted or expected. But won't hurt for me to double-check with him.

It seemed the part we were not seeing (besides the spark) is the drop in voltage on the input side when the magnet passes by the sensor.  We would see 5v so we know the current is flowing, but if I understand correctly, the magnet interrupts the current  (5v drops to 0)  which sends off the signal to the output side to fire the spark.   
--

Corbin 
N33QR
Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

The resolution on this issue has been discovered so I wanted to update this thread for future reference.  

Klaus has been great and it has been discovered (and proven) that the brackets sent to me were not drilled correctly causing misalignment.  We were at least correct in identifying the problem area.  Off to design a new bracket modification now.

Corbin 
N33QR
Bill Allen
 

Good that the problem has been found to be; <<the brackets sent to me were not drilled correctly causing misalignment >>

Do you mean the bracket that holds the mini-sensor to the engine case, or some other bracket?

Bill Allen



On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 22:19, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
The resolution on this issue has been discovered so I wanted to update this thread for future reference.  

Klaus has been great and it has been discovered (and proven) that the brackets sent to me were not drilled correctly causing misalignment.  We were at least correct in identifying the problem area.  Off to design a new bracket modification now.

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR
Mike Steinsland
 

Is it possible to weld the mounting holes shut then drill new ones?
Save a lot of manufacturing 

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:22 PM Corbin via groups.io, <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Yes, in fact, a local IA recommended that approach as well.  I’d certainly would be easiest.

Corbin

On Nov 14, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:


Is it possible to weld the mounting holes shut then drill new ones?
Save a lot of manufacturing 

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:22 PM Corbin via groups.io, <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR


--

Corbin 
N33QR
Bill Allen
 

Thanks Corbin. Understood. I had the same issue ( which I described way back in this thread) - the bracket fitted the engine OK, but unless the sensor was perfectly lined up, no sparks. 
I confirmed the system was wired correctly by passing a S-pole of a magnet over the mini-sensor, in which case the plugs would spark.
I don't like to call Klaus as it’s always my fault. I think in Germany the customer isn’t always right..... and statistically Klaus probably has this confirmed for him on a daily basis.

Bill

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 02:22, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

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