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Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Bill,
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Your South Pole magnet comment helped us. It’s the one thing we had tried yet due to simply not having one. We immediately got a spark yesterday when we did it. Pure joy. Then we realized a more effective test is to just pass the sensor across the magnet in the plate. That way, you can confirm both the sensor and the plate work at the same time. Of course, if still no spark then the South Pole of a magnet could still prove the sensor back to input and output to cooks works. I think Klaus should have immediately offered to send replacement brackets instead of having me makeshift a solution. Corbin On Nov 14, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote:
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Corbin N33QR |
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Why doesn’t Klaus simply send you the correct brackets??
Seems that would have solved a lot of cost and aggravation. |
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Because.....well....Klaus. 😀
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Corbin On Nov 14, 2020, at 6:38 PM, Rik <Info@...> wrote:
-- Corbin N33QR |
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Leif Johnson
When I installed mine on my EZ I had to slightly modify the sensor bracket to position the sensor correctly. Remove the sensor and with the system powered, just carefully move it over the magnets in the disk til it sparks. You’ll find it is very sensitive to
radial positioning, hence modifying the bracket. I had to oval the holes a bit to position the sensor farther away from center just a tad. You’ll find one coils’ magnet to be quite literally 1/8” outside the other as the disk rotates. It took me a few days
to figure it out. I also had to grind a bit on the case to get the mentioned bracket to not warp when tightened into place. As I install the same system on my Q200 I will expect to have to do the same fussing. That being said, other than the plug wires sliding
off a couple times (make sure the rubber boot is worked down. . . Way down on the automotive plug), I’ve been thrilled with the performance of this system. It really is awesome, especially at higher altitudes. Good luck!
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Leif Johnson
Vari Ez Race 25
Q-200 (almost). On Nov 9, 2020, at 10:37, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
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Anthony P
This is all very good information/findings for public distribution.
Seems like the free magnet passing over the sensor should be a recommended early trouble shooting procedure. Maybe even a bench procedure for proving system function before an aircraft is involved. "The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark." This is a problem. If the sensor is within the stated alignment tolerance radially and axially, but the system does not function, then the tolerance spec is wrong. Not good. Due to many factors, the stated alignment tolerance needs to be well within the actual alignment tolerance for system functionality. Otherwise someone could be on the cusp of functionality without knowing it and vibration, thermal expansion, sensor performance thermal effects, magnetic strength thermal effects,... could push it into the non-functioning region. Added to this list are magnetic field shape and strength variation from the manufacturer. This, of course, should be baked into the system level alignment tolerance. What are the radial and axial alignment tolerance specs? Has anyone confirmed these under real world condition changes? I'm guessing no one is swapping out magnets to test sensitivity, rather they are just making it work for the magnets they received. |
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Richard Gammon <gamzoom@...>
I am following this topic with interest as I had experience with electronic
ignition in the past.
Yes Klaus will be able to tell you if there is other test points to track
down the problem source.
One thing that I remember in designs I was involved with, included a safety
feature that limited the speed of prop rotation that would trigger the
production of a high voltage to the spark plugs. This would disable the ignition
when moving the prop slowly to avoid ignition as a safety feature. There could
be a minimum prop speed to enable spark production.
This could well not be the case with the Plasma system.
So pleased to see the adoption of electronic
ignition in your aircraft. It has taken us decades to get close to fully adopt
this technology in piston engines. Imagine turbine engines without
electronics.
Rich G
________ From: Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 11:12 AM
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from
Coils As
we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this
group. As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic
ignition system in my Q200. Following the instructions, we have followed
the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark
from the coils. No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can
including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps. Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on, etc.). However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils. Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark? We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors. The other area I thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now. My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position). I still wonder though... If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know. We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening. -- Corbin N33QR |
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Hey Anthony,
The vertical and horizontal alignment mentioned is referring to the lines on the mini sensor and the magnet plate lining up to one another. Once you realize the true middle of where the magnet needs to pass then it could be as much as 1/32" off from those lines. The other tolerance is the distance b/t sensor and plate. That range can be from .030" - .050" (refer to the manual on that upper limit to check me) which allows for the crankshaft moving. That range tolerance seems very good. -- Corbin N33QR |
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Anthony P
Close up pic of your actual sensor and wheel installation when you have a moment please.
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Anthony - here is one pic until I get back out there again. This is a pic of the placement/alignment with the original bracket with original holes drilled by Lightspeed. You can see the vertical alignment is very, very close (the two lines match). This actually shows it is more than just a bracket issue and is also (or either) the lines on the plate possibly. You can see the magnet above the TCI mark. At this location, when I rotate the magnet plate to have the magnet pass by, the magnet is too high to get a reading/spark. The location we have found seems to be in the middle (still dialing that in) actually moves the sensor up where the top of the sensor is flush with the outer edge of the plate. This modified position places the little magnet on the plate about halfway between the top of the sensor and the horizontal line.
 -- Corbin N33QR |
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Leif,
When you drilled the holes to the oval shape, so you could move the sensor, what did you do (if anything) to prevent the sensor from vibrating or coming loose in any way and sliding down to the original location? I have done the exact same thing as you describe above to confirm a working location but I have not put much thought into how to prevent "sensor creep" other than filling in with weld and drilling new holes. -- Corbin N33QR |
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Anthony P
Thanks for the pic.
Makes sense. Maybe a part revision miss-match for the kit you received? Maybe a sensor location problem within the sensor housing? At least you know what needs to happen now to get it working. |
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
....And here is a photo of where it needs to be installed. I am still going to test to see if the DC mini sensor needs to go a tad higher to be in the ideal position for the magnet.
In the first one, you can see how the new revised location of the sensor does not match the horizontal lines (going against the install manual). In fact, they are way off (see earlier pic above). This location gets a consistent spark every rotation. If the manual is followed and the lines match up, but no spark of course. In the second pic, I have rotated the magnet plate so you can see where the little "dot" magnet passes by the sensor. It needs to pass by in this area or a tad lower. The original bracket and holes had it passing at the very top of the sensor which is really far off from being read. Again, it could be the sensor could come up a little higher so still adjusting before getting new brackets or welding of current holes done.   -- Corbin N33QR |
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My LSE installation had a very different setup, it had circuit board mounted to the front of the crankcase,, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here. But, it does look like your mounting block is not parallel to the rotor. I don't know if that's a factor or not. Sam ....And here is a photo of where it needs to be installed. I am still going to test to see if the DC mini sensor needs to go a tad higher to be in the ideal position for the magnet. |
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Good eye, Sam. I just quickly mounted it there for the photo. We are still drilling the adjustment holes to get it spaced up just right. Aiming for .03” of clearance top and bottom.
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Corbin On Nov 15, 2020, at 5:54 PM, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
-- Corbin N33QR |
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Actually, not drilling but using a needle file to get it just right.
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Corbin On Nov 15, 2020, at 5:57 PM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:
-- Corbin N33QR |
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There will be a certain amount of play in the crankshaft, so be sure to load the prop forward when you establish your clearance.
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Good point. I should clarify, it is set at .032” with the crankshaft in all the way. I need to measure the gap with it out all the way.
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Corbin On Nov 15, 2020, at 7:21 PM, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
-- Corbin N33QR |
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Brad Walker
I've been a member of this group for a long time and never really post until now.. But, I use these Hall-effect sensors in my professional life and there is no way to know about the "alignment tolerance" with the document. These sensors are measured using the strength of the magnetic field. The Hall-effect sensor vendor will provide you with details about the spacing and how it effects the magnetic field. Here is a chart from a vendor that shows how the sensor operates in the presence of a mag field. Notice if the magnetic flux is not strong enough, the sensor will never turn on. So if the vendor hasn't properly characterized the sensor, then it really could be a problem. -brad w. On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 8:04 AM Anthony P <solarant@...> wrote: This is all very good information/findings for public distribution. |
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Leif Johnson
Corbin.
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After simply filing the holes to move the sensor out and up I filled the gap in the enlongated holes with hard gasket maker, then torqued it solid with slightly oversized washers and locking nuts. It needs to be held in place as it’s tightened of corse.
I found the sensor to be much more sensitive to radial (up and down) positioning than gap distance to the disk. That dimension has quite a bit of slop with the crank fore/aft movement anyway. It has operated well with no issues for about 60 hours now. I was
surprised at how much of the case needed removed to make that bracket sit flat and flush with the case split line. I fly the hell out of my EZ and will do the same with my Q. Hope that helps.
Leif. On Nov 15, 2020, at 17:54, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
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Corbin <c_geiser@...>
Thanks Leif....very helpful!
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Corbin On Nov 15, 2020, at 10:24 PM, Leif Johnson <jetdude@...> wrote:
-- Corbin N33QR |
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