LS1 midspan hinge repair


 

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 


Anthony P
 

Not the answer to your question, but certainly something to think about and to give context.

https://q-list.groups.io/g/main/topic/88363586#53466



--
Q2 N86KL


Mike Dwyer
 


On Sun, May 8, 2022, 1:15 PM Mike via groups.io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 


Jay Scheevel
 

That’s the CS-17 for the GU canard I think. 


On May 8, 2022, at 12:32 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:



On Sun, May 8, 2022, 1:15 PM Mike via groups.io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 

IMG_20220508_143029.jpg


Mike Dwyer
 

I think your right.  It looks like there are 3 appendix sheets for the Q200.  None of those have a CS17.  It's been a long time since I built it but maybe the CS17 is the same in the Q2 and Q200?
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 2:41 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
That’s the CS-17 for the GU canard I think. 


On May 8, 2022, at 12:32 PM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:



On Sun, May 8, 2022, 1:15 PM Mike via groups.io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 

IMG_20220508_143029.jpg


Terry Crouch
 

There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


 

Terry, thanks.    615-967-8706


On May 8, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...> wrote:


There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Frankenbird Vern
 

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


One Sky Dog
 

Vern,

These center hinges have failed before. Steel is a lot better in fatigue than Al  but if the inflight stress levels are close to the limit it is an insidious problem. It is obviously not a shear failure of they would be breaking upon loading.

Reducing stress is the only answer. This is a materials problem. Either increase cross section, increase load transfer points, or redesign like Jay has done.

Fatigue = repeated cyclic loading below the yield point internal material flaws move to high stress areas over time resulting in cracks and final failure at loads below the design point.

My $0.02 worth of armchair analysis.

Regards,

On Monday, May 9, 2022, 4:47 AM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Jim Patillo
 

The right elevator mid point mount failed about halfway between the pivot and the floxed in base. We couldn’t determine when or how the failure occurred. However Mike called me in January saying he did have an issue with that elevator making a rubbing noise, on his original flight down to Bolder. 
I looked at my plans for the actual part but couldn’t find it. We must have glued the original template directly on the aluminum before cutting it out. If anyone has an original template available, it would be greatly appreciated since the mount may have been modified to fit a spar instead of a shear web. Sam H, what did you use for a template when you built your new canard? 

The elevator trailing edge was also delaminated about 18”, kinda weird. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

PS. I finished the install of my dual AV30’s over the weekend and removed 9.5 lbs from the airplane. No mags, no vacuum system. The mini AHARS have several functions, including EFIS, Legacy and Vintage Displays GPS Arc, etc. 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 4:47:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Jay Scheevel
 

I would agree with Charlie. This is definitely a weak point, and Aluminum, unlike steel, has no fatigue stress floor, meaning that it will fail at some point regardless of stress, just lower stress will buy you more time/cycles until failure.  My opinion is that the construction sequence for this part in the QAC plans also is less than optimal. There is no attention to detail in the plans that ensure that the ¼” pin in the CS-17 will end up axially parallel to the torque tube. If it is not, then every movement of elevator up or down adds both wear and stress as it flexes the part. In the installation of my redesigned version, I made sure that I fully installed the elevator prior to the flox curing on my version of CS-17. This way, I could move the elevator through its entire range and make sure the CS-17 worked its way into a final position that was perfectly perpendicular to the elevator torque tube prior to the flox fully curing.  I would recommend is a mounting procedure that is similar for the standard CS-17 installation.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 6:20 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

Vern,

 

These center hinges have failed before. Steel is a lot better in fatigue than Al  but if the inflight stress levels are close to the limit it is an insidious problem. It is obviously not a shear failure of they would be breaking upon loading.

Reducing stress is the only answer. This is a materials problem. Either increase cross section, increase load transfer points, or redesign like Jay has done.

Fatigue = repeated cyclic loading below the yield point internal material flaws move to high stress areas over time resulting in cracks and final failure at loads below the design point.

 

My $0.02 worth of armchair analysis.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

 

On Monday, May 9, 2022, 4:47 AM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

 

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes

 me wonder why. 

 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

 

Terry Crouch

Quickie N14TC

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 


Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Jim,

 

I will look at home for my original sheets. I bet I have it. If I do, I will send a photo of the original and you can size it appropriately from that. Won’t be back home until this evening, but I will check then.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 8:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

The right elevator mid point mount failed about halfway between the pivot and the floxed in base. We couldn’t determine when or how the failure occurred. However Mike called me in January saying he did have an issue with that elevator making a rubbing noise, on his original flight down to Bolder. 

I looked at my plans for the actual part but couldn’t find it. We must have glued the original template directly on the aluminum before cutting it out. If anyone has an original template available, it would be greatly appreciated since the mount may have been modified to fit a spar instead of a shear web. Sam H, what did you use for a template when you built your new canard? 



The elevator trailing edge was also delaminated about 18”, kinda weird. 

 

Jim

N46JP Q200

 

PS. I finished the install of my dual AV30’s over the weekend and removed 9.5 lbs from the airplane. No mags, no vacuum system. The mini AHARS have several functions, including EFIS, Legacy and Vintage Displays GPS Arc, etc. 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 4:47:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

 

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes

 me wonder why. 

 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

 

Terry Crouch

Quickie N14TC

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 


Jay Scheevel
 

Another option would be to cut two pieces of .125” 6061 sheet, put the broken part back in place and sandwich it between the two new pieces of 6061 (like a splint), then drill and rivet the sandwich together. The 6061 will not crack as easily as the original alloy that quickie provided and will give a good seat for the rivets and the sandwich will be plenty strong. This all assumes there is enough clearance and remaining meat on the broken piece to allow this fix.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 8:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

The right elevator mid point mount failed about halfway between the pivot and the floxed in base. We couldn’t determine when or how the failure occurred. However Mike called me in January saying he did have an issue with that elevator making a rubbing noise, on his original flight down to Bolder. 

I looked at my plans for the actual part but couldn’t find it. We must have glued the original template directly on the aluminum before cutting it out. If anyone has an original template available, it would be greatly appreciated since the mount may have been modified to fit a spar instead of a shear web. Sam H, what did you use for a template when you built your new canard? 



The elevator trailing edge was also delaminated about 18”, kinda weird. 

 

Jim

N46JP Q200

 

PS. I finished the install of my dual AV30’s over the weekend and removed 9.5 lbs from the airplane. No mags, no vacuum system. The mini AHARS have several functions, including EFIS, Legacy and Vintage Displays GPS Arc, etc. 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 4:47:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

 

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes

 me wonder why. 

 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

 

There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

 

Terry Crouch

Quickie N14TC

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    

pM me please 


Richard Thomson
 

    So had Mike flown with this broken support and not realised, or had it broken on the ground ?

    Could the delam on the elevator have been caused by flexing in flight after it failed?

    On my walk around I do a check of the mid point support by gently looking for up and down movement.

    This was suggested by somebody on this list a long time ago and seemed a sensible check to have on my list.

    But I do like Jays solution, its solid. Looks like it could be retrofitable. its on my list of improvements.


    Rich T

   


On 09/05/2022 15:23, Jim Patillo wrote:
The right elevator mid point mount failed about halfway between the pivot and the floxed in base. We couldn’t determine when or how the failure occurred. However Mike called me in January saying he did have an issue with that elevator making a rubbing noise, on his original flight down to Bolder. 
I looked at my plans for the actual part but couldn’t find it. We must have glued the original template directly on the aluminum before cutting it out. If anyone has an original template available, it would be greatly appreciated since the mount may have been modified to fit a spar instead of a shear web. Sam H, what did you use for a template when you built your new canard? 

The elevator trailing edge was also delaminated about 18”, kinda weird. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

PS. I finished the install of my dual AV30’s over the weekend and removed 9.5 lbs from the airplane. No mags, no vacuum system. The mini AHARS have several functions, including EFIS, Legacy and Vintage Displays GPS Arc, etc. 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 4:47:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Jim Patillo
 

Richard, I do that same check but simply pushing up and down on the mid point may not tell the whole story. If the elevator slot and elevator fit closely, there may not be enough room to fully check the movement up and down.  That’s why it’s a good idea to check this at yearly inspection.

Don’t know if the plane was flown here with the mid pivot gone or not. Don’t know if the elevator delay took place in flight or not. 

Jim
N46JP Q200 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Richard Thomson <richard@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 8:58:24 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 

    So had Mike flown with this broken support and not realised, or had it broken on the ground ?

    Could the delam on the elevator have been caused by flexing in flight after it failed?

    On my walk around I do a check of the mid point support by gently looking for up and down movement.

    This was suggested by somebody on this list a long time ago and seemed a sensible check to have on my list.

    But I do like Jays solution, its solid. Looks like it could be retrofitable. its on my list of improvements.


    Rich T

   


On 09/05/2022 15:23, Jim Patillo wrote:
The right elevator mid point mount failed about halfway between the pivot and the floxed in base. We couldn’t determine when or how the failure occurred. However Mike called me in January saying he did have an issue with that elevator making a rubbing noise, on his original flight down to Bolder. 
I looked at my plans for the actual part but couldn’t find it. We must have glued the original template directly on the aluminum before cutting it out. If anyone has an original template available, it would be greatly appreciated since the mount may have been modified to fit a spar instead of a shear web. Sam H, what did you use for a template when you built your new canard? 

The elevator trailing edge was also delaminated about 18”, kinda weird. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

PS. I finished the install of my dual AV30’s over the weekend and removed 9.5 lbs from the airplane. No mags, no vacuum system. The mini AHARS have several functions, including EFIS, Legacy and Vintage Displays GPS Arc, etc. 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 4:47:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Richard Thomson
 

    Thanks Jim 

    Its on my schedule as an annual check item, along with greasing the hinges and checking the pins.

    I do the check looking for movement at the hinge as a confidence improver on the Pre-taxi. (That will be a Preflight whenever it gets that far).


    I take it the mags are not removed due to the AV30 install?

    Rich

   

On 09/05/2022 17:12, Jim Patillo wrote:
Richard, I do that same check but simply pushing up and down on the mid point may not tell the whole story. If the elevator slot and elevator fit closely, there may not be enough room to fully check the movement up and down.  That’s why it’s a good idea to check this at yearly inspection.

Don’t know if the plane was flown here with the mid pivot gone or not. Don’t know if the elevator delay took place in flight or not. 

Jim
N46JP Q200 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Richard Thomson <richard@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 8:58:24 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 

    So had Mike flown with this broken support and not realised, or had it broken on the ground ?

    Could the delam on the elevator have been caused by flexing in flight after it failed?

    On my walk around I do a check of the mid point support by gently looking for up and down movement.

    This was suggested by somebody on this list a long time ago and seemed a sensible check to have on my list.

    But I do like Jays solution, its solid. Looks like it could be retrofitable. its on my list of improvements.


    Rich T

   


On 09/05/2022 15:23, Jim Patillo wrote:
The right elevator mid point mount failed about halfway between the pivot and the floxed in base. We couldn’t determine when or how the failure occurred. However Mike called me in January saying he did have an issue with that elevator making a rubbing noise, on his original flight down to Bolder. 
I looked at my plans for the actual part but couldn’t find it. We must have glued the original template directly on the aluminum before cutting it out. If anyone has an original template available, it would be greatly appreciated since the mount may have been modified to fit a spar instead of a shear web. Sam H, what did you use for a template when you built your new canard? 

The elevator trailing edge was also delaminated about 18”, kinda weird. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

PS. I finished the install of my dual AV30’s over the weekend and removed 9.5 lbs from the airplane. No mags, no vacuum system. The mini AHARS have several functions, including EFIS, Legacy and Vintage Displays GPS Arc, etc. 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 4:47:23 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Frankenbird Vern
 

 Charlie.. do our Dragonfly Canards share this issue? If so then I'll be modifying. I figured it was fatigue..and probably from propeller thrust 
variations. Just my guess as to why. First thing that came to mind was adding doublers but I'll look at Jay's solution. My canard has not flown, 
but the hinges are installed. I will be building both elevators new.   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 7:20 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
Vern,

These center hinges have failed before. Steel is a lot better in fatigue than Al  but if the inflight stress levels are close to the limit it is an insidious problem. It is obviously not a shear failure of they would be breaking upon loading.

Reducing stress is the only answer. This is a materials problem. Either increase cross section, increase load transfer points, or redesign like Jay has done.

Fatigue = repeated cyclic loading below the yield point internal material flaws move to high stress areas over time resulting in cracks and final failure at loads below the design point.

My $0.02 worth of armchair analysis.

Regards,

Charlie


On Monday, May 9, 2022, 4:47 AM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please 


Chris Walterson
 

I was building from scratch so I installed 2  equilly placed hinge points rather than the 1 central one. I have a inboard gear so there is no load on the hinge rather than elevator load . If your wheels are at the canard tip, the hinge will take pressure when landing if there isn't enough play built in.

take care------------  Chris


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David J. Gall
 

On May 9, 2022, at 1:03 PM, Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:

 I was building from scratch so I installed 2  equilly placed hinge points rather than the 1 central one. I have a inboard gear so there is no load on the hinge rather than elevator load . If your wheels are at the canard tip, the hinge will take pressure when landing if there isn't enough play built in.

take care------------  Chris


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One Sky Dog
 

Vern,

I do not have Q plans. From the discussion I surmise an Aluminum arm is bonded to the canard and it failed in fatigue between the hinge at the huge change in stiffness where it is bonded in. Stress follows stiffness change. I chimed in because I seem to remember an accident where this might have been a factor in a inflight elevator failure. I cannot remember details. Fatigue failures are insidious and sadly not considered in plastic airplanes not designed to last a half century. My 767 door springs had to demonstrate 200,000 cycles to qualify. How much testing did the Q Corp do on hinge arms?

For your somewhat off topic question. Dragonfly has tip bearing, 2 mid span hinge arms 4130 steel bonded in and the elevator torque control tube is coaxial and plugs into the elevator hinge tube. Torque loads are transmitted through the Revised bonded in wood rib with a bellcrank and two bolts directly to the skin laminate. 

The Dragonfly elevator flutter issue was using -3 bolts to pin the aluminum hinge tube to the steel elevator control tube in the fuselage that was also pinned together with -3 bolts. The only thing between the hinge tube and elevator skin, 2 lb styrofoam. When things got shaking the bearing strength of the hinge tube was not enough to keep the holes from elongating allowing flutter. No one lost a fluttering elevator which at least took the hinge joints to limit loads.

Regards,

On Monday, May 9, 2022, 12:42 PM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 Charlie.. do our Dragonfly Canards share this issue? If so then I'll be modifying. I figured it was fatigue..and probably from propeller thrust 
variations. Just my guess as to why. First thing that came to mind was adding doublers but I'll look at Jay's solution. My canard has not flown, 
but the hinges are installed. I will be building both elevators new.   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 7:20 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
Vern,

These center hinges have failed before. Steel is a lot better in fatigue than Al  but if the inflight stress levels are close to the limit it is an insidious problem. It is obviously not a shear failure of they would be breaking upon loading.

Reducing stress is the only answer. This is a materials problem. Either increase cross section, increase load transfer points, or redesign like Jay has done.

Fatigue = repeated cyclic loading below the yield point internal material flaws move to high stress areas over time resulting in cracks and final failure at loads below the design point.

My $0.02 worth of armchair analysis.

Regards,

Charlie


On Monday, May 9, 2022, 4:47 AM, Frankenbird Vern <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 Mike.. if Bob or Jim can photo the fail and present it? ..might give some idea of what the cause was.

  Could be from not breaking the sharp edges or possibly the material itself.  .125" is fairly robust so it makes
 me wonder why. 

Vern   

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair
 
There are 6 appendix sheets for the LS1, CS-17 is on the first one.  Send me your phone # Mike and I will send a photo.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike via groups.io <n7000t@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2022 12:15 pm
Subject: [Q-List] LS1 midspan hinge repair

Hi all,
I flew my Q200 to Livermore recently to have bob Farnahm ( original builder) help me do my condition inspection. Upon removal of the right elevator we found the midspan hinge was broken. Bob and Jim Patillo have offered to fix in my absence and since I live in Nevada. Problem is none of us can find the LS1 addendum for the Q200. Especially needing the CS17 part to help with the fix. I’ve been on quick heads and Jon finley’ site to no avail. Does anyone have a PDF file you can send me on that topic (maybe Sam that has rebuilt his canard?
Thanks in advance 

Mike Q200.   N200QK.    
pM me please