W and B


Chris Walterson
 

I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

 On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail. If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Chris,

Different people have tailwheels in different places (mine is on the nose),
plus I think you have unconventionally located main gear, right? I would
suggest you just try to get the empty CG between FS39 and FS40, and things
should work out pretty well regardless of the gear placement. If you get
this right you will probably not need to add ballast, but your mileage may
vary.

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris
Walterson
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 12:20 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] W and B

 I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

 On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail.
If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Jim Patillo
 

Hi Chris,
Most Q200’s I know of don’t require extra weight in the tail. I have 15 lbs. pressure on the tail wheel in its normal stance. 
Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Chris Walterson <dkeats@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 2:20:02 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: [Q-List] W and B
 
 I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

  On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail.
If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Chris Walterson
 

Thanks for the info on the W and B.   Full speed ahead.-----------  Chris


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Mike Dwyer
 

Hi Chris,
I have a large battery (32 lbs) in the rear tail cone behind the first bulkhead (forget the FS station - I built it 35 years ago).
Mike Dwyer Q200

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:
  I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

  On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail.
If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Paul Fisher
 

I too have my battery aft of the first bulkhead in the tailcone (I can't remember what it is either!!).  I've included my empty weight and balance data below - hopefully gmail won't screw up the formatting too much.  This was done 31 years ago, so it may have changed over time!  Remember when the plane is weighed it is in level attitude (NOT with the tail on the ground).  Jim said he had 15 pounds on the tail, and I've got 18, so we're pretty close.  I hope that helps.

Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF


                      Q200 N17PF
                 Weight & Balance Data


    Main Gear    36.9 inches
    Tail Gear   211.5 inches


               POUNDS      MOMENT
             ---------------------
    Empty No Gas, No Pilot
    Left        355.0    13,099.5
    Right       354.0    13,062.6
    Tail         18.0     3,807.0             Empty CG
             ---------------------            ---------
       Total    727.0    29,969.1                 41.2

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 3:57 PM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
Hi Chris,
I have a large battery (32 lbs) in the rear tail cone behind the first bulkhead (forget the FS station - I built it 35 years ago).
Mike Dwyer Q200

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:
  I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

  On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail.
If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Kevin Sheeley
 

I am 354 LM, 347 RM, 10 TW for 721 EW and 39.9” CG.
My battery is behind seatback bulkhead.
Kevin

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021, 7:31:28 PM EDT, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


I too have my battery aft of the first bulkhead in the tailcone (I can't remember what it is either!!).  I've included my empty weight and balance data below - hopefully gmail won't screw up the formatting too much.  This was done 31 years ago, so it may have changed over time!  Remember when the plane is weighed it is in level attitude (NOT with the tail on the ground).  Jim said he had 15 pounds on the tail, and I've got 18, so we're pretty close.  I hope that helps.

Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF


                      Q200 N17PF
                 Weight & Balance Data


    Main Gear    36.9 inches
    Tail Gear   211.5 inches


               POUNDS      MOMENT
             ---------------------
    Empty No Gas, No Pilot
    Left        355.0    13,099.5
    Right       354.0    13,062.6
    Tail         18.0     3,807.0             Empty CG
             ---------------------            ---------
       Total    727.0    29,969.1                 41.2

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 3:57 PM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
Hi Chris,
I have a large battery (32 lbs) in the rear tail cone behind the first bulkhead (forget the FS station - I built it 35 years ago).
Mike Dwyer Q200

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:
  I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

  On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail.
If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Sam Hoskins
 

There is a Weight & Balance folder in the Files section of the Q-list. Successful builders are encouraged to post their results there.


Sam 

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:20 PM Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:
  I am getting close to the W and Balance of the airplane.

  On the Q200 with the continental does anyone use ballast in the tail.
If so, how much?

What are most people getting for tail weight?

Still having fun-------------------  Chris


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Chris Walterson
 

What are the exact moments for the stations on the plans built Q200?  I see some places the moment for the pilot is 54.7 and then again another pilot position is  60.8. Is that custom built?  I also see the header at 23 and then at 24.

 The empty weight is about 750. A bit chunky. Hopefully the extra HP will show.  Take care--------------- Chris



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Jay Scheevel
 

Chris,

I recommend you establish an empty CG FS and then go from there. Have a look at the W&B documents in the folder that Sam referenced on the group site. The FS of the tanks and the pilot/passenger (as well as the cargo area behind the seats), are best done by experiment on your aircraft. Weigh yourself, then hop in the airplane (while level) and have someone read the scales for you. Then fill the tanks in 2 gallon increments and do the same. This is easy to do and gives you the right answer for your plane. Most of the Tri-Q's are at or above 750, and they seem to fly, so I would not worry about the weight. I think that Reg Clarke's with the turbocharged Subaru engine was over 800 and I watched him fly it in and out of my 2600' long strip that is at 4650' MSL.

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2021 4:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B

What are the exact moments for the stations on the plans built Q200? I see some places the moment for the pilot is 54.7 and then again another pilot position is 60.8. Is that custom built? I also see the header at 23 and then at 24.

The empty weight is about 750. A bit chunky. Hopefully the extra HP will show. Take care--------------- Chris



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Paul Fisher
 

I agree with Jay.  Weigh it empty, then climb in and weigh it again.  Then fill the main tank and weigh it, then fill the header, refill the main tank and weigh it again.  Then add some baggage and weigh it again.  With all of those numbers you can exactly calculate the arms of each of the items.  I would NOT use any published numbers for moment arms.  Math doesn't lie.

Just my opinion.

Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 18:14 Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
Chris,

I recommend you establish an empty CG FS and then go from there. Have a look at the W&B documents in the folder that Sam referenced on the group site. The FS of the tanks and the pilot/passenger (as well as the cargo area behind the seats), are best done by experiment on your aircraft. Weigh yourself, then hop in the airplane (while level) and have someone read the scales for you. Then fill the tanks in 2 gallon increments and do the same. This is easy to do and gives you the right answer for your plane. Most of the Tri-Q's are at or above 750, and they seem to fly, so I would not worry about the weight. I think that Reg Clarke's with the turbocharged Subaru engine was over 800 and I watched him fly it in and out of my 2600' long strip that is at 4650' MSL.

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2021 4:46 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B

  What are the exact moments for the stations on the plans built Q200? I see some places the moment for the pilot is 54.7 and then again another pilot position is  60.8. Is that custom built?  I also see the header at 23 and then at 24.

  The empty weight is about 750. A bit chunky. Hopefully the extra HP will show.  Take care--------------- Chris



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Chris Walterson
 

What I am trying to do is to figure out how much ballast I will need in the tail wheel area.

 If I add twenty lbs as far back as I can,  I get 10 lbs on the tail wheel, and 370 on the mains at station 35.5. [inboard gear]

 This gives me a empty CG of 37.4.

 I get my wife to jump in and she is 159.5 lbs with here heavy runners on. According to her.

 With this I have 33 lbs on tail wheel, 465 pilot side and 425 copilot side.

 Total 923 and Cg at 41.8.

 If the header and mains are filled, mathematically  I get 1043 and CG of 47.5 I will still do the actual Wand B with real fuel and real people to make certain.

 The problem I see is that if I hop in [ 190 lbs with light runners] along with full fuel  I get 1233 Lbs , but the CG is 48.6. According to the chart the CG wants to be 50 plus.

 Does any one have their  Cg numbers at the higher weights. 1200------1300 ?

 I am also doing the math, old school, with out a calculator. Don't use it, you sure loose it.

 Take care--------------  Chris


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Dave Dugas
 

I'd tighten up the light runners and run like hell if it were me and I posted my wife's weight.
Dave D


On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:39 AM, Chris Walterson
<dkeats@...> wrote:
  What I am trying to do is to figure out how much ballast I will need
in the tail wheel area.

 If I add twenty lbs as far back as I can,  I get 10 lbs on the tail
wheel, and 370 on the mains at station 35.5. [inboard gear]

 This gives me a empty CG of 37.4.

 I get my wife to jump in and she is 159.5 lbs with here heavy runners
on. According to her.

 With this I have 33 lbs on tail wheel, 465 pilot side and 425 copilot
side.

 Total 923 and Cg at 41.8.

 If the header and mains are filled, mathematically  I get 1043 and CG
of 47.5 I will still do the actual Wand B with real fuel and real people
to make certain.

 The problem I see is that if I hop in [ 190 lbs with light runners]
along with full fuel  I get 1233 Lbs , but the CG is 48.6. According to
the chart the CG wants to be 50 plus.

 Does any one have their  Cg numbers at the higher weights.
1200------1300 ?

 I am also doing the math, old school, with out a calculator. Don't use
it, you sure loose it.

 Take care--------------  Chris


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Jay Scheevel
 

Chris measure the FS’ again on your mains and tailwheel. Remembering forward face of firewall is FS 14. Post those FS numbers and all your weights on wheels with different loadings. I can double check your math. Sounds like more variation than I would expect. 

Cheers,
Jay 


On Jul 1, 2021, at 8:54 AM, Dave Dugas via groups.io <davedq2@...> wrote:

I'd tighten up the light runners and run like hell if it were me and I posted my wife's weight.
Dave D


On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:39 AM, Chris Walterson
<dkeats@...> wrote:
  What I am trying to do is to figure out how much ballast I will need
in the tail wheel area.

 If I add twenty lbs as far back as I can,  I get 10 lbs on the tail
wheel, and 370 on the mains at station 35.5. [inboard gear]

 This gives me a empty CG of 37.4.

 I get my wife to jump in and she is 159.5 lbs with here heavy runners
on. According to her.

 With this I have 33 lbs on tail wheel, 465 pilot side and 425 copilot
side.

 Total 923 and Cg at 41.8.

 If the header and mains are filled, mathematically  I get 1043 and CG
of 47.5 I will still do the actual Wand B with real fuel and real people
to make certain.

 The problem I see is that if I hop in [ 190 lbs with light runners]
along with full fuel  I get 1233 Lbs , but the CG is 48.6. According to
the chart the CG wants to be 50 plus.

 Does any one have their  Cg numbers at the higher weights.
1200------1300 ?

 I am also doing the math, old school, with out a calculator. Don't use
it, you sure loose it.

 Take care--------------  Chris


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Chris Walterson
 

Jay----------   When the aircraft is empty and level it will nose over due to no tail weight. If install 20 lbs at the aft bulkhead I get

10 lbs on the tail station 214-------  373 on both mains at station 35.5.  I have inboard gear that is 21.5 inches back from the front of the firewall.

 With my wife and no fuel we get 33lbs at 214    465 at 35.5 , pilot side and 425 at 35.5 passenger side.  Total 923 @ 41.8.

 I'll get the certified scales and do the pilot and fuel loading as the guys have been suggesting.

 Still having fun--------------  Chris


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Sam Hoskins
 

A proper weight and balance must be performed on every aircraft, using a logical method, taking it from scratch. The EAA has an excellent series on how to do this. You must be an EAA member to view the program. 

Kitplanes magazine also had an excellent article with an accompanying spreadsheet for entertaining your data. 


I hope this helps. 

Sam 


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021, 8:14 PM Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:
  Jay----------   When the aircraft is empty and level it will nose over
due to no tail weight. If install 20 lbs at the aft bulkhead I get

10 lbs on the tail station 214-------  373 on both mains at station
35.5.  I have inboard gear that is 21.5 inches back from the front of
the firewall.

  With my wife and no fuel we get 33lbs at 214    465 at 35.5 , pilot
side and 425 at 35.5 passenger side.  Total 923 @ 41.8.

  I'll get the certified scales and do the pilot and fuel loading as the
guys have been suggesting.

  Still having fun--------------  Chris


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Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Chris,

 

Sorry for the delay. Here are my calculations. I think you are in the ballpark since you will be in the envelope with single pilot (provided you weigh more than your wife) with no fuel, since that is the most forward possible loading scenario in flight. You may need to adjust that 20 lb lead in the tail when you get your fuel and baggage arms sorted to keep you in bounds aft. I find that my plane is much more comfortable to fly if I am between 42 and 45, but that is just my preference, not what QAC says is possible.

 

My entire tail cone assembly weighs less than 30 pounds all up, so keep in mind that putting 20 pounds mass in the far aft tail cone will affect your yaw response and nimbleness. The large inertial mass will resist starting to move and also resist stopping moving. Just something to keep in mind, especially in a tail dragger with inboard mounted gear.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2021 7:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B

 

 Jay----------   When the aircraft is empty and level it will nose over due to no tail weight. If install 20 lbs at the aft bulkhead I get

 

10 lbs on the tail station 214-------  373 on both mains at station 35.5.  I have inboard gear that is 21.5 inches back from the front of the firewall.

 

 With my wife and no fuel we get 33lbs at 214    465 at 35.5 , pilot side and 425 at 35.5 passenger side.  Total 923 @ 41.8.

 

 I'll get the certified scales and do the pilot and fuel loading as the guys have been suggesting.

 

 Still having fun--------------  Chris

 

 

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Chris Walterson
 

Jay-------  Thanks for the info. I think I may have been using 54.7 for my pilot loading.

 As I said before, I will do a real world weight and balance to make sure it is correct.

 Let me pass something by the guys. If I need  twenty or more lbs near the back bulkhead to get the

proper tail wheel load, I was thinking, because I don't exactly have a Q rudder and stab, why don't I load

closer to the tail wheel. I was thinking of removing  the rudder and boring a 5/8 hole down the stab, full length.

 My stab has a spar so I  can drill just forward of it. Fill the 5/8 steel pipe with lead , weight it and slide it down the hole with flox

 and epoxi. I could also slide a pipe filled with lead inside the rudder tube  itself and rivet/ glue it in place.

My rudder is mass balanced, but the lead is at the balance point so it should not pose a problem.

I could also bend some 3/8 metal to fit inside the tail wheel mount for maybe 1/2 lb more.

 I think doing something like this i could reduce the actual weight needed by half.

 I realize pot is legal in Canada, but I didn't really use any, just thinking in the abstract.

 Any comments appreciated. Now to clean up the garage for next Saturday. Hopefully a week is long enough.

 Take care-----------------  Chris


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One Sky Dog
 

Chris,

Can anything be relocated aft of present position? Every pound moved aft no matter where on the airframe makes a difference. Give everything a critical why does it have to be located there.

Just a thought before adding dead weight. With my Corvair/Dragonfly I had to locate the battery aft of the wing. It still was not enough so I went to a heavier battery. Odyssey 925 solved wt and bal plus carries more amp hrs. Duel function and it is not a Bob weight on a long arm that suffers inertial effects.

Regards,

On Sunday, July 4, 2021, 7:28 PM, Chris Walterson <dkeats@...> wrote:

  Jay-------  Thanks for the info. I think I may have been using 54.7
for my pilot loading.

 As I said before, I will do a real world weight and balance to make
sure it is correct.

 Let me pass something by the guys. If I need  twenty or more lbs near
the back bulkhead to get the

proper tail wheel load, I was thinking, because I don't exactly have a Q
rudder and stab, why don't I load

closer to the tail wheel. I was thinking of removing  the rudder and
boring a 5/8 hole down the stab, full length.

 My stab has a spar so I  can drill just forward of it. Fill the 5/8
steel pipe with lead , weight it and slide it down the hole with flox

 and epoxi. I could also slide a pipe filled with lead inside the
rudder tube  itself and rivet/ glue it in place.

My rudder is mass balanced, but the lead is at the balance point so it
should not pose a problem.

I could also bend some 3/8 metal to fit inside the tail wheel mount for
maybe 1/2 lb more.

 I think doing something like this i could reduce the actual weight
needed by half.

 I realize pot is legal in Canada, but I didn't really use any, just
thinking in the abstract.

 Any comments appreciated. Now to clean up the garage for next
Saturday. Hopefully a week is long enough.

 Take care-----------------  Chris


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Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Chris,

Not sure I can visualize what you are describing below, but no mind. Maybe after Saturday I will understand. In the meantime, here is a little inspiration video for you. Same plane, same engine, same prop as you.
https://youtu.be/JcNPc-gYaIc

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 7:29 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] W and B

Jay------- Thanks for the info. I think I may have been using 54.7 for my pilot loading.

As I said before, I will do a real world weight and balance to make sure it is correct.

Let me pass something by the guys. If I need twenty or more lbs near the back bulkhead to get the

proper tail wheel load, I was thinking, because I don't exactly have a Q rudder and stab, why don't I load

closer to the tail wheel. I was thinking of removing the rudder and boring a 5/8 hole down the stab, full length.

My stab has a spar so I can drill just forward of it. Fill the 5/8 steel pipe with lead , weight it and slide it down the hole with flox

and epoxi. I could also slide a pipe filled with lead inside the rudder tube itself and rivet/ glue it in place.

My rudder is mass balanced, but the lead is at the balance point so it should not pose a problem.

I could also bend some 3/8 metal to fit inside the tail wheel mount for maybe 1/2 lb more.

I think doing something like this i could reduce the actual weight needed by half.

I realize pot is legal in Canada, but I didn't really use any, just thinking in the abstract.

Any comments appreciated. Now to clean up the garage for next Saturday. Hopefully a week is long enough.

Take care----------------- Chris


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