Weight and balance and fuel considerations


Troy Zawlacki
 

I just recently did a prelim W&B as I finish up my plane and then went deep down the rabbit hole immediately. I remade the original charts from the operating manual into a spreadsheet so I could figure the optimal place to locate my battery.

Then I quickly realized that the CG envelope doesn’t seem big enough for the difference between full fuel in the main and empty fuel in the main? Has anyone else noticed this? I made this plot for just one pilot with points from top to bottom showing:full main full header, empty main full header, and finally all empty. It seems like a normal plot to make for a cross country but it would be impossible to stay within the limits burning the full main tank volume. Are the CG limits really that conservative from the plans?

Also, does anyone want to share their empty weight numbers? I had a good laugh after reading the plans again as they quote 495 lbs for a Q2 and 505 lbs for a Q200! I seem to recall like 650 lbs for a Q2 and 700 lbs for a Q200 as normal.

My plane comes in at 595 lbs and a 40 inch CG arm (which I think I am happy about?).

 

Taz


 

Following with curiosity. And would you mind sharing the spreadsheet please? If yes I'd be happy to make it into a shareable online spreadsheet on Google.

Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.


Jay Scheevel
 

All the material that you need is in a folder in the files section of the group. If you do not find what you are looking for, I have an interactive spreadsheet that is much more extensive that can be modified for your plane and I can send that to you.

Cheers,
Jay 


On Jun 28, 2022, at 8:42 PM, Robert Schmid <robert@...> wrote:

Following with curiosity. And would you mind sharing the spreadsheet please? If yes I'd be happy to make it into a shareable online spreadsheet on Google.

Thanks Robert
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.


Richard Thomson
 

Hi Troy,

Your plot looks similar to my original ones, then Jay pointed out to me I was using the wrong axis and bingo came out they were spot on between the flags.

My TriQ200  is around 760 Lbs empty.

Rich T.


On 29/06/2022 03:41, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
I just recently did a prelim W&B as I finish up my plane and then went deep down the rabbit hole immediately. I remade the original charts from the operating manual into a spreadsheet so I could figure the optimal place to locate my battery.

Then I quickly realized that the CG envelope doesn’t seem big enough for the difference between full fuel in the main and empty fuel in the main? Has anyone else noticed this? I made this plot for just one pilot with points from top to bottom showing:full main full header, empty main full header, and finally all empty. It seems like a normal plot to make for a cross country but it would be impossible to stay within the limits burning the full main tank volume. Are the CG limits really that conservative from the plans?

Also, does anyone want to share their empty weight numbers? I had a good laugh after reading the plans again as they quote 495 lbs for a Q2 and 505 lbs for a Q200! I seem to recall like 650 lbs for a Q2 and 700 lbs for a Q200 as normal.

My plane comes in at 595 lbs and a 40 inch CG arm (which I think I am happy about?).

 

Taz


Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

For reference, my Q200 is 727lbs empty and I’m weighing again at the end of week now that all the avionics are complete.  

Corbin

On Jun 29, 2022, at 4:26 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:



Hi Troy,

Your plot looks similar to my original ones, then Jay pointed out to me I was using the wrong axis and bingo came out they were spot on between the flags.

My TriQ200  is around 760 Lbs empty.

Rich T.


On 29/06/2022 03:41, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
I just recently did a prelim W&B as I finish up my plane and then went deep down the rabbit hole immediately. I remade the original charts from the operating manual into a spreadsheet so I could figure the optimal place to locate my battery.

Then I quickly realized that the CG envelope doesn’t seem big enough for the difference between full fuel in the main and empty fuel in the main? Has anyone else noticed this? I made this plot for just one pilot with points from top to bottom showing:full main full header, empty main full header, and finally all empty. It seems like a normal plot to make for a cross country but it would be impossible to stay within the limits burning the full main tank volume. Are the CG limits really that conservative from the plans?

Also, does anyone want to share their empty weight numbers? I had a good laugh after reading the plans again as they quote 495 lbs for a Q2 and 505 lbs for a Q200! I seem to recall like 650 lbs for a Q2 and 700 lbs for a Q200 as normal.

My plane comes in at 595 lbs and a 40 inch CG arm (which I think I am happy about?).

PastedGraphic-1.png 

Taz

--

Corbin 
N121CG


Richard Thomson
 

    Are you expecting heavier or lighter Corbin ? cant remember if you had clockwork panel before, or 1st gen EFis ?

    Rich T

On 29/06/2022 10:38, Corbin via groups.io wrote:
For reference, my Q200 is 727lbs empty and I’m weighing again at the end of week now that all the avionics are complete.  

Corbin

On Jun 29, 2022, at 4:26 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:



Hi Troy,

Your plot looks similar to my original ones, then Jay pointed out to me I was using the wrong axis and bingo came out they were spot on between the flags.

My TriQ200  is around 760 Lbs empty.

Rich T.


On 29/06/2022 03:41, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
I just recently did a prelim W&B as I finish up my plane and then went deep down the rabbit hole immediately. I remade the original charts from the operating manual into a spreadsheet so I could figure the optimal place to locate my battery.

Then I quickly realized that the CG envelope doesn’t seem big enough for the difference between full fuel in the main and empty fuel in the main? Has anyone else noticed this? I made this plot for just one pilot with points from top to bottom showing:full main full header, empty main full header, and finally all empty. It seems like a normal plot to make for a cross country but it would be impossible to stay within the limits burning the full main tank volume. Are the CG limits really that conservative from the plans?

Also, does anyone want to share their empty weight numbers? I had a good laugh after reading the plans again as they quote 495 lbs for a Q2 and 505 lbs for a Q200! I seem to recall like 650 lbs for a Q2 and 700 lbs for a Q200 as normal.

My plane comes in at 595 lbs and a 40 inch CG arm (which I think I am happy about?).

PastedGraphic-1.png 

Taz

--

Corbin 
N121CG


Troy Zawlacki
 

I looked over all the documents in the “files” section and nothing seems to give evidence one way or the other. Matthew Curcio shows similar data points that he tested that are way outside of the plans envelope. 

The spreadsheet online with the different builders noted only has Q200s, so not much Q2 info available. The biggest question is just about the change in CG over the course of the flight. Since the main tank is pretty much on CG, when you burn it off, you go directly out of the envelope to aft CG, right? Am I missing something here? 

Rich what do you mean by the wrong axis?

Here is another plot updated with the LS1 CG envelope in grey. This is for a 200 lb pilot and full fuel.

And here is that same scenario with an additional 150 lb passenger.

Taz

On Jun 29, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

For reference, my Q200 is 727lbs empty and I’m weighing again at the end of week now that all the avionics are complete.  

Corbin

On Jun 29, 2022, at 4:26 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:



Hi Troy, 

Your plot looks similar to my original ones, then Jay pointed out to me I was using the wrong axis and bingo came out they were spot on between the flags. 

My TriQ200  is around 760 Lbs empty.

Rich T.


On 29/06/2022 03:41, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
I just recently did a prelim W&B as I finish up my plane and then went deep down the rabbit hole immediately. I remade the original charts from the operating manual into a spreadsheet so I could figure the optimal place to locate my battery.

Then I quickly realized that the CG envelope doesn’t seem big enough for the difference between full fuel in the main and empty fuel in the main? Has anyone else noticed this? I made this plot for just one pilot with points from top to bottom showing:full main full header, empty main full header, and finally all empty. It seems like a normal plot to make for a cross country but it would be impossible to stay within the limits burning the full main tank volume. Are the CG limits really that conservative from the plans?

Also, does anyone want to share their empty weight numbers? I had a good laugh after reading the plans again as they quote 495 lbs for a Q2 and 505 lbs for a Q200! I seem to recall like 650 lbs for a Q2 and 700 lbs for a Q200 as normal.

My plane comes in at 595 lbs and a 40 inch CG arm (which I think I am happy about?).

<PastedGraphic-1.png> 

Taz

-- 

Corbin 
N121CG


Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

I’m really not sure and eager to see the difference.  The old gauges and mags add up to a decent amount so I’m guessing it will be lighter.  I know it’s at least lighter firewall forward due to no mags.

--

Corbin 
N121CG


Richard Thomson
 

   For some reason I was plotting FS on the horizontal axis instead of Moment (X1000).

    Not sure if that is your problem, but the lines certainly looked similar.

    Rich T

On 29/06/2022 11:05, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
I looked over all the documents in the “files” section and nothing seems to give evidence one way or the other. Matthew Curcio shows similar data points that he tested that are way outside of the plans envelope. 

The spreadsheet online with the different builders noted only has Q200s, so not much Q2 info available. The biggest question is just about the change in CG over the course of the flight. Since the main tank is pretty much on CG, when you burn it off, you go directly out of the envelope to aft CG, right? Am I missing something here? 

Rich what do you mean by the wrong axis?

Here is another plot updated with the LS1 CG envelope in grey. This is for a 200 lb pilot and full fuel.

And here is that same scenario with an additional 150 lb passenger.

Taz

On Jun 29, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

For reference, my Q200 is 727lbs empty and I’m weighing again at the end of week now that all the avionics are complete.  

Corbin

On Jun 29, 2022, at 4:26 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:



Hi Troy, 

Your plot looks similar to my original ones, then Jay pointed out to me I was using the wrong axis and bingo came out they were spot on between the flags. 

My TriQ200  is around 760 Lbs empty.

Rich T.


On 29/06/2022 03:41, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
I just recently did a prelim W&B as I finish up my plane and then went deep down the rabbit hole immediately. I remade the original charts from the operating manual into a spreadsheet so I could figure the optimal place to locate my battery.

Then I quickly realized that the CG envelope doesn’t seem big enough for the difference between full fuel in the main and empty fuel in the main? Has anyone else noticed this? I made this plot for just one pilot with points from top to bottom showing:full main full header, empty main full header, and finally all empty. It seems like a normal plot to make for a cross country but it would be impossible to stay within the limits burning the full main tank volume. Are the CG limits really that conservative from the plans?

Also, does anyone want to share their empty weight numbers? I had a good laugh after reading the plans again as they quote 495 lbs for a Q2 and 505 lbs for a Q200! I seem to recall like 650 lbs for a Q2 and 700 lbs for a Q200 as normal.

My plane comes in at 595 lbs and a 40 inch CG arm (which I think I am happy about?).

<PastedGraphic-1.png> 

Taz

-- 

Corbin 
N121CG


Richard Thomson
 

    So is that more aft CG ?  That will be interesting to see what you get.

    Rich T.

On 29/06/2022 11:08, Corbin via groups.io wrote:
I’m really not sure and eager to see the difference.  The old gauges and mags add up to a decent amount so I’m guessing it will be lighter.  I know it’s at least lighter firewall forward due to no mags.

--

Corbin 
N121CG


Troy Zawlacki
 

Richard great catch, I did the same thing. I remember this same confusion from Cessna POHs. Sometimes they use Moment/1000 and sometime they use CG location. Here is the corrected chart, crisis averted!



On Jun 29, 2022, at 3:25 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:

    So is that more aft CG ?  That will be interesting to see what you get.

    Rich T.

On 29/06/2022 11:08, Corbin via groups.io wrote:
I’m really not sure and eager to see the difference.  The old gauges and mags add up to a decent amount so I’m guessing it will be lighter.  I know it’s at least lighter firewall forward due to no mags.

--

Corbin 
N121CG


Richard Thomson
 

That looks better. 

On 29/06/2022 11:34, Troy Zawlacki wrote:
Richard great catch, I did the same thing. I remember this same confusion from Cessna POHs. Sometimes they use Moment/1000 and sometime they use CG location. Here is the corrected chart, crisis averted!



On Jun 29, 2022, at 3:25 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:

    So is that more aft CG ?  That will be interesting to see what you get.

    Rich T.

On 29/06/2022 11:08, Corbin via groups.io wrote:
I’m really not sure and eager to see the difference.  The old gauges and mags add up to a decent amount so I’m guessing it will be lighter.  I know it’s at least lighter firewall forward due to no mags.

--

Corbin 
N121CG


Jay Scheevel
 

You got it now, Troy. The envelope was expanded for the LS1 canard, and I am guessing that you have the GU canard, so strictly speaking you will want to use your blue outline, but there is probably some wiggle room there. Your test case shows that you are near the aft edge of the envelope when lightly loaded, so you may want to keep that in mind when placing your battery.

 

Here is the link to the spreadsheet that I put together. https://q-list.groups.io/g/main/files/Weight%20&%20Balance/Builder_W&B_by_component1.xls  This spreadsheet has several tabs. The first tab is W&B by component, which automatically computes your empty W&B as you add or rmove compontnents and puts the resulting value in the second tab. This tab allows you to put in flight loads and fuel burn and computes the history of your flight CG and plots it on the graph at the bottom.

 

You can modify this spreadsheet to fit your aircraft and use it for flight planning. The graph at the bottom is from QAC documents.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Troy Zawlacki
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 4:34 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Weight and balance and fuel considerations

 

Richard great catch, I did the same thing. I remember this same confusion from Cessna POHs. Sometimes they use Moment/1000 and sometime they use CG location. Here is the corrected chart, crisis averted!

 



On Jun 29, 2022, at 3:25 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:

 

    So is that more aft CG ?  That will be interesting to see what you get.

    Rich T.

On 29/06/2022 11:08, Corbin via groups.io wrote:

I’m really not sure and eager to see the difference.  The old gauges and mags add up to a decent amount so I’m guessing it will be lighter.  I know it’s at least lighter firewall forward due to no mags.

--

Corbin 
N121CG

 


Troy Zawlacki
 

Jay,

I checked out your spreadsheet, and it seems to agree with the one I made as well. 

I do have the LS1 canard… with the Revmaster, so I think I can use the gray envelope but this explains why I am on the very aft end. I can basically move the battery all the way to the firewall if I want, plot shown below with battery near header tank.
 

On Jun 29, 2022, at 6:21 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

You got it now, Troy. The envelope was expanded for the LS1 canard, and I am guessing that you have the GU canard, so strictly speaking you will want to use your blue outline, but there is probably some wiggle room there. Your test case shows that you are near the aft edge of the envelope when lightly loaded, so you may want to keep that in mind when placing your battery. 
 
Here is the link to the spreadsheet that I put together. https://q-list.groups.io/g/main/files/Weight%20&%20Balance/Builder_W&B_by_component1.xls  This spreadsheet has several tabs. The first tab is W&B by component, which automatically computes your empty W&B as you add or rmove compontnents and puts the resulting value in the second tab. This tab allows you to put in flight loads and fuel burn and computes the history of your flight CG and plots it on the graph at the bottom. 
 
You can modify this spreadsheet to fit your aircraft and use it for flight planning. The graph at the bottom is from QAC documents. 
 
Cheers,
Jay
 
 
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Troy Zawlacki
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 4:34 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Weight and balance and fuel considerations
 
Richard great catch, I did the same thing. I remember this same confusion from Cessna POHs. Sometimes they use Moment/1000 and sometime they use CG location. Here is the corrected chart, crisis averted!
 
<image001.png>


On Jun 29, 2022, at 3:25 AM, Richard Thomson <richard@...> wrote:
 
    So is that more aft CG ?  That will be interesting to see what you get. 
    Rich T.
On 29/06/2022 11:08, Corbin via groups.io wrote:
I’m really not sure and eager to see the difference.  The old gauges and mags add up to a decent amount so I’m guessing it will be lighter.  I know it’s at least lighter firewall forward due to no mags.

-- 

Corbin 
N121CG 
 



 

I took your spreadsheet and started filling in my own data but stopped because I am confused ...

1 - What is it with what seems to me the unusual CG envelope? What is the min/max CG for a GU canard Quickie?
2 - Is the gross weight for the GU canard really only 1000lbs? And yes I know, I define this as the builder but still ...

Here is my start to this ... https://bit.ly/DuckieWAndB


--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.


Troy Zawlacki
 

Robert,

I don’t think the envelope is unusual. If you get the empty CG in the limits (blue lines for GU) then all the fuel and people loading will just shift it up and down along the slope within the envelope.

Troy

On Jul 20, 2022, at 3:57 PM, Robert Schmid <robert@...> wrote:

I took your spreadsheet and started filling in my own data but stopped because I am confused ...

1 - What is it with what seems to me the unusual CG envelope? What is the min/max CG for a GU canard Quickie?
2 - Is the gross weight for the GU canard really only 1000lbs? And yes I know, I define this as the builder but still ...

Here is my start to this ... https://bit.ly/DuckieWAndB


--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.


Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Robert,

 

First, you will need to make sure you assign the correct Fuselage Station (FS) to your weight points to get your empty CG for your specific plane. For obvious reasons your main gear have a smaller (more forward) FS on the Q2-taildragger and rather than my nose wheel, you will have a tailwheel at something like FS=200. 

 

You need level your plane and measure the these FS’s and empty weights (unfortunately, you can only do this after it is built, but you can use my component spreadsheet (corrected for your mains and tail FS’s) to do your weights incrementally as you build, so you don’t get any big surprises at the end. My spreadsheet is set up for my Tri-Q2, so get your FS set up first in the spreadsheet, then play with your component weight and FS numbers and see if you get new results for empty CG.

 

The published envelope for the original GU canard is shown in the POH published for the Q2 by QAC Here is the page for that from the POH. This published CG range is 44.3” to 47.3” with a GW to 1000 pounds. I think that the GW for the Q2 was later raised to 1100 pounds for the GU, but you will have to review the QAC newsletters to verify that. I would consult with Jason Skiby or Corbin Geiser to determine the tested GW on the airplane that was finished by Jason and sold to Corbin, just for reference of course, because yes, you are the builder/test pilot, and what you test your airplane to is what goes in your log books/Pilot operating documents and applies to your airplane for purposes of certification.

 

Cheers,

Jay

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Schmid
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2022 4:58 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Weight and balance and fuel considerations

 

I took your spreadsheet and started filling in my own data but stopped because I am confused ...

1 - What is it with what seems to me the unusual CG envelope? What is the min/max CG for a GU canard Quickie?
2 - Is the gross weight for the GU canard really only 1000lbs? And yes I know, I define this as the builder but still ...

Here is my start to this ... https://bit.ly/DuckieWAndB


--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.


 

Figured I had something wrong, thanks will adjust accordingly and yes I realize none of this is very firm until built. THANKS for your spreadsheet to start.
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.


Mike Dwyer
 

The GU canard has a spar that ends about 4 feet from the wing tip.  Your highest risk is a hard landing and snapping the canard at that point.  You know if you load a Cessna 150 to max gross and try lifting it by the wing tips that you'll break the wing.  I calculated with a Q loaded to gross and just sitting on the ground the canard is seeing 4G's.  In flight I'm not concerned.  Landing... I'm concerned!  The LS1 spar has a carbon fiber round spar the full length of the wing and has a GW of 1100 lbs.  With the GU at 1000 lbs, you need all your landings to be squeakers!
Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 9:04 PM Robert Schmid <robert@...> wrote:
Figured I had something wrong, thanks will adjust accordingly and yes I realize none of this is very firm until built. THANKS for your spreadsheet to start.
--
Robert "TheFrisco" Schmid
(408) 805-5450

www.facebook.com/TheFlyingFriscos
www.theflyingfriscos.com

Love building planes almost as much as flying. Latest completed build is "Loki", a Chinook Plus 2 bush plane.