Topics

Your Opinion


 

Hello everyone,
I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 
 
I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 
We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 
 
The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.
The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.
 
One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.
I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/
After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.
 
I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.
 
Thanks for taking the time.
Keith
N494K
 
 
 
_._,_._,_



Bruce McCormack
 

Is it similar to what Rain-X or Durapel does to your windshield?

On 2Jan, 2021, at 9:52, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,
I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 
 
I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 
We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 
 
The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.
The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.
 
One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.
I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/
After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.
 
I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.
 
Thanks for taking the time.
Keith
N494K
 
 
 
<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Keith,

 

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff about the Teflon. It certainly has the potential to get the droplets much smaller. Not sure if smaller droplets would keep them from freezing though. Just might make it a more uniform coating. When it goes from liquid to solid is a function of primarily temperature, but there are a few other factors associated with agitation and even electrical charge, but the primary influence is temperature and to a lesser degree pressure.

 

It is interesting to hear that you encountered your serious carb ice issue in the summer. I also had a similar experience flying from Winona Minnesota to see a friend of mine in Lafayette Indiana in June a number of years ago. I was flying down the Mississippi river, maybe 2500 feet AGL and I noticed I was having trouble holding my altitude, as I kept trimming it up. I had a constant speed prop, so revs remained constant so all sounded good, then I glanced down at the MP guage and saw like 15 inches! Yikes. I hit the carb heat, and almost killed the engine, probably when a big chunk broke loose. This was a big Lycoming 540 with the intake buried in the oil pan. It was in the mid 60’s (F) outside and thin overcast about 1500 feet above me. Not when I would expect ice, but there it was.  Of course there are other possibilities:  Maybe planes flying to or from Indiana are more prone to ice than other planes.  😊

 

Happy New Year, Keith.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Keith Welsh
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 8:53 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 


Terry Adams
 

Keith,
I have a plane with mechanical (Airflow Performance) and a plane with electronic (SDS) fuel injection so my opinion may be limited.� I especially question the sentence in the article "
Fuel-injected engines also mix fuel and air, but sometimes by misadjustment, wear, manufacturing or design defect or material failure, fuel is able to leak through a seal that separates the fuel from the air in the injector servo".
Not likely.� This definitely is not happening with electronic fuel injection in that typically the fuel is never in the induction system until it is injected in the cylinder.� This would be a long shot on the Airflow Performance even though the fuel is technically in the servo then injected directly in the cylinder after the fuel divider.
Slide throttle "injectors" like the Ellison or AeroCarb are a whole different animal.
Terry Adams
KSCK

On 1/2/2021 7:52 AM, Keith Welsh wrote:
Hello everyone,
I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year.�
�
I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing.�
We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.� I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.� At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.� After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course.�
�
The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.
The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.
�
One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.� Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.
I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/
After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.� The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.� Very impressive.
�
I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.
�
Thanks for taking the time.
Keith
N494K
�
�
�

-- 
Communication ink and paper free


Dave Dugas
 

Hi Keith

I remember you telling me about this, and I’m glad that you attached the article, since I’ve had a bit of experience with carb ice. So far I’ve been able to manage it fine with my carb heat mixture set-up, but it’s a very interesting article. Thanks….Dave D

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Keith Welsh
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 10:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

 


One Sky Dog
 

If your ice tea glass is sweating you are in the humidity range for carb ice. The vaporization of fuel takes energy which lowers the air temperature drastically. Any water vapor in the air condenses and may freeze.

On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io <davedq2@...> wrote:



Hi Keith

I remember you telling me about this, and I’m glad that you attached the article, since I’ve had a bit of experience with carb ice. So far I’ve been able to manage it fine with my carb heat mixture set-up, but it’s a very interesting article. Thanks….Dave D

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Keith Welsh
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 10:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

 

<D0CFA40E58B8464A96B3AC0266DDC4EA.png>


Bruce Crain
 

I’ve never had carb ice.  But I don’t know why.  Could be the tight fit underneath the cowl and heat around the carb?  
Bruce


On Jan 2, 2021, at 3:03 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

If your ice tea glass is sweating you are in the humidity range for carb ice. The vaporization of fuel takes energy which lowers the air temperature drastically. Any water vapor in the air condenses and may freeze.

Charlie


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io <davedq2@...> wrote:



Hi Keith

I remember you telling me about this, and I’m glad that you attached the article, since I’ve had a bit of experience with carb ice. So far I’ve been able to manage it fine with my carb heat mixture set-up, but it’s a very interesting article. Thanks….Dave D

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Keith Welsh
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 10:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

 

<D0CFA40E58B8464A96B3AC0266DDC4EA.png>



Mike Dwyer
 

I have had carb ice once.  75F day.  Turned base, pulled the carb heat and the engine died.  I always try to stay high enough to glide in.  Squeaker landing and made the turn off I had planned.  Bob Hoover would have been proud.  Started the engine again in 5 min.  The next week I installed my carb temp gauges.  Now I don't even pull carb heat unless it shows near freezing.

One note.  I had removed the 4 into 1 crossover exhaust and installed 4 into 4 system.  The new exhaust doesn't heat the carb and case like the original.  Much cooler oil temps.  I'm sure that was the main cause.

Fly safe,
Mike

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021, 7:50 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I’ve never had carb ice.  But I don’t know why.  Could be the tight fit underneath the cowl and heat around the carb?  
Bruce


On Jan 2, 2021, at 3:03 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

If your ice tea glass is sweating you are in the humidity range for carb ice. The vaporization of fuel takes energy which lowers the air temperature drastically. Any water vapor in the air condenses and may freeze.

Charlie


On Jan 2, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io <davedq2=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



Hi Keith

I remember you telling me about this, and I’m glad that you attached the article, since I’ve had a bit of experience with carb ice. So far I’ve been able to manage it fine with my carb heat mixture set-up, but it’s a very interesting article. Thanks….Dave D

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Keith Welsh
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 10:54 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

 

<D0CFA40E58B8464A96B3AC0266DDC4EA.png>



Martin Skiby
 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

Fly safe!

Martin

 


On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:


Hello everyone,
I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 
 
I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 
We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 
 
The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.
The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.
 
One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.
I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/
After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.
 
I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.
 
Thanks for taking the time.
Keith
N494K
 
 
 
<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


Jay Scheevel
 

Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 



On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


Corbin
 

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 



On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR


Jim Patillo
 

Fellas,

I’ve only had carb ice in my 0200A a couple times over 20 years of flight, which I found interesting. I typically do not use carb heat on landing (not a recommendation by me, your findings may vary).  I also have a 4:1 header.
Only had vapor lock one time during an airshow. Took the gascolator off, rerouted the fuel line so it did not pass near the oil tank and never had the problem again.

About ready to head the Q back to the Bay Area for two days. Safe flying to you all.

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 10:13:53 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion
 
Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 



On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR


Martin Skiby
 

We traded it for a Long EZE.  My son flew the TriQ out to Missouri and the Long EZE back.  We are rebuilding the Long now.  Almost done.  I miss the TriQ, but the Long EZE will be better for my son at this point fir travel.  

Martin

 


On Jan 3, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 



On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR


Bill Allen
 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048


A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001


Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962


If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.


Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)


Fly safe, and land with heat :^)


Bill Allen




On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 



On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Dragonfly Russell
 

Fantastic perspective, Bill. Thanks for sharing!

Russell Austin


On Jan 3, 2021, at 1:15 PM, Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote:



“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048


A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001


Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962


If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.


Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)


Fly safe, and land with heat :^)


Bill Allen




On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 



On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Jay Scheevel
 

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin



On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Bill Allen
 

Updraft, downdraft, - it doesn’t matter. What matters is the relative humidity and air temperature, combined with the carburettors venturi effect and the LHE of the fuel, as below;


On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 22:23, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin



On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

--


Bill Allen
 

Also, FYI, Ben Ellison made some videos of his TBI and at the 4m46s point you can see ice formation in a carburettor here; 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 22:44, Bill Allen via groups.io <billallensworld=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Updraft, downdraft, - it doesn’t matter. What matters is the relative humidity and air temperature, combined with the carburettors venturi effect and the LHE of the fuel, as below;


On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 22:23, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin



On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

--

--


Mike Dwyer
 

So I fly at 27C alot and it's 80% humidity much of the time.  That's a 20C dew point.
On the graph, I'm in the "Serious Icing" virtually all the time!
Am I the only Q pilot with a humidity gauge on my panel?

Mike Dwyer


On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 4:44 PM Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote:
Updraft, downdraft, - it doesn’t matter. What matters is the relative humidity and air temperature, combined with the carburettors venturi effect and the LHE of the fuel, as below;


On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 22:23, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin



On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>


--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

--


 

Hi again,
All your comments, experiences and knowledge no doubt turned out to be a real education.  I don’t know about y’all but icing is normally not a discussion item.  I’m glad I took the chance to post the article.  Learned more than I thought I would.  And thank you all for “Your Opinions”
 
I must admit I was hoping for some info regarding the use of Prist.  I did actually use it in the Quickie for a time.  Reckon it did ok..that was several years ago.  My Q does not have carb heat nor does the carb have access to outside air, only hot air off the engine and is why the interest in the Teflon coating.  The carb on the newer Onan sets higher so to accommodate a new heat box I would need to make a new cowl bump....like that was gonna happen!  Not surprised no one had much to say about it.  
 
Like Jay I’m sure ice will form Teflon or not but I’ve never used a Teflon coated anything that anything would stick to it.  I once froze water in both a steel pan and a Teflon one.  Guess which one the ice slid out of.  The steel pan had ice remnants sticking to it after most was chipped out.  Yeah, pretty unscientific but....  Think about your plastic ice server bucket when guest come over, the ice sticks to everything even fingers.  At least modern technology has provided us with some options.

Thanks again,
Keith

Please note: message attached

From: "Mike Dwyer " <q200pilot@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 17:00:40 -0500